Golden Interview - Martijn Lancee: Leadership & Authenticity

Martijn Lancee 0:00 You're made to believe that you should follow a certain pattern or to be successful. It's effectively why people go to go to school universities read books, it's like, what's the formula, if I do a plus b plus c equals success, happiness, etc. But oftentimes, I don't think there is a formalized as for that type of success and happiness, I really think someone should figure it out for themselves and. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 0:40 Once upon a time, there were 10s of 1000s of makers struggling every day they built for hours and hours but didn't ship and didn't earn enough income. One day, the no code wealth podcast and newsletter came to help them find a way because of this makers became founders and earn the money they deserve. Because of this, founders can have growth, freedom and wealth until tomorrow, no code becomes the next big scale that changes the future of humanity. That's what I'm all about. Hello, my name is Abdulaziz and from an ethical hacker, to a European Ivy League business graduate to a hypnotherapist to a growth marketer. I've lost everything twice. And now I'm rebuilding my life one more time. 1% a day, the no code wealth, podcast and newsletter are for the makers and founders who have the proactivity perspective and persistence to go on this journey with me and get the answers from experts, as well as the stories of other makers about money marketing and mindsets. So that makers become earners, burners become founders and founders get freedom and create wealth. And thank you so much for the support. This podcast is now ranking nicely on Apple in the entrepreneurship category, top 200 in San Francisco, top 60 In Germany, top 50 In the UK, top 30 in Sweden, top 25 in Italy and top 25 in India. So please keep rating review and subscribing and cheering. My guest today is awesome. It's an honor, a privilege. And every one of those honorary words that they can describe this experience. His name is Martin lancy. from Barbados, to the Netherlands, to Rwanda to the emirates to San Francisco, from Microsoft, to Google, to LinkedIn, he is now responsible for the strategy and business development, mobile growth at LinkedIn. And this episode is an exploration of his mind mistakes, and the insight that made him successful. Martin, how are you today? Martijn Lancee 2:56 I'm doing well. Thank you, as you said, I just want to say that I really appreciate your energy, your positive is your entrepreneurial spirit. And I appreciate this opportunity to talk. Thank you, Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 3:07 you are welcome. And I believe in life, there are so many great people who have so much to say and in their mind so many lessons. But they're focused so much on building their life. And the next big thing that they don't have as much of the opportunity to share the wisdom with the world. And you are one of them that the more you can share, the more people can get inspired and benefit, especially knowing the mistakes because there is a problem in our culture of almost deifying successful people thinking that they were always so perfect, so successful with no mistakes at all, which is not true. Then, to begin, I'm thinking about the format, where we go through your life from lesson by lesson that opened your eyes to a way of living or a reality about life, or something about the way to be that will get you more of what you want in life. So if this is possible, can you think back? What was that first lesson or experience that you had in life that made you understand life at a deeper level? Martijn Lancee 4:22 You know, if you come together, you you go a lot further than if you try to go along. And I think that base of having a family with a loving mom and a sister. It was really important for me to to understand that I although I was only four or five, six years old at the time, there you have a responsibility. You're part of this family and we had a great time. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 4:43 This is interesting. Do you then approach life in a way now where you don't focus too much on your own, like scale development or your own glory but rather think about growing a team and working In a team way, and always thinking that, as a team, you'll win much more than individually. Martijn Lancee 5:06 Absolutely. I love that question. I think it's an old African proverb that goes, if you want to go fast go alone, if you want to go far go together. And that's, that's both for for people's professional and personal lives. So for me, in particular, I strongly believe in if you if you really focus on building out depth of your relationships, that you will achieve much bigger things by working with other people. And, and it's also a lot more fun, I think, you know, the to your point, like being a lone wolf is really not that enjoyable. Sometimes it is, I think everybody needs a little bit of me time. You know, for some people, it's just 10 minutes a day. And for some people, it might, for example, be an hour a day, they need to exercise, I think it's important for everyone to figure out what their goals are, and write these down and live by them to just remind yourself of how you think you want to live your life. And to me that that's to your point, very important to good memory that I much rather work with a lot of people that do things on their own. And that was also from my family's case. And then also, you know, I don't want to, I'll stop right there. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 6:20 No, it's wonderful. Actually, it reminds me of a book that I read about it was a scientific study of what is cool. And what does the brain find that it considers to be cool? And why are things cool or not, which is already a fascinating concept by itself. But there was a chapter saying that the most difficult decision for human beings is to know who to trust. Because in evolutionary terms, if you trust the wrong person, you're dead, it's done. So you spoke about depth of relationships, then do you have some kind of criteria or things to look for? Because to go for depth, there is an opportunity cost, if you invest in the wrong person, do you have like some way of differentiating or deciding or a criteria to say, okay, this person, I will invest in them, they will be part of my team, and we'll go deep together versus someone else do you think, okay, they're nice, but they're not worth that deeper, more exclusive relationship? Martijn Lancee 7:28 That's a really interesting question. I think, you know, to start from, from the beginning, I try to give everyone I meet the opportunity to build a relationship. I, you know, everyone has unconscious bias. And I'm trying to be more aware of this. And typically, I try to follow my gut. And sometimes my gut tells me, I don't really feel like investing in this relationship. But especially then what I try to do is focus my energy on understanding why. And I think, especially the people that we don't understand, or maybe we feel scared by, those are typically the relationships where if you invest more in, you get a lot more back, because there's more to learn. You know, for example, if I talk to someone who's very similar to me, there's probably not much to learn. So even though it might feel very comfortable to invest in that relationship, and easily agree with what the person says, there's not much to learn there. And it's not a lot of value to bring to the table in most instances. And to answer your question. Yes, I do. I think character values are part of building that trust. So trust in one word, is the answer to your question where what is my criteria for really investing in a deep relationship, and trust, the way that I look at it is either find thrust as consistency over time, so really knowing what what you can expect from someone. And that's always been my mission as well. When I show up at work, where, you know, we have, we have a reputation. And a reputation is effectively how you want the world to see you. And that's something that you can change. When you meet new people, you can build a completely new reputation. But on the on the other side of reputation is what's really you, which is your character, which is based on your values. And, you know, I think it's important to write down those values. So you always have a to Norfolk yourself, so you can just be true to yourself. And I think that type of philosophy builds authenticity in a person. And you can sense that when someone's being authentic. And typically, when someone's being authentic. I, in my experience, they're also very trustworthy, because they're very confident and self aware of who they are. And to me that's, that's a big sign that there is a potential deeper relation to be built and enjoyed. I'll pause right there. Love the love to hear from you if that made sense. He also don't want to talk too much. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 10:01 Yes, actually, I couldn't agree with you more, it reminds me of that Charlie Munger saying that the best way to get what you want in life is to deserve it. Not through tricks or trying to push buttons or sneaky way. So it's very, very true. And I'm noticing something, you spoke about the human biases, and how when you meet people who are different from you, you're actually I know, you're speaking about the blind spots that they can clarify your light up or shed light on them, which will show you something you didn't see before. But that is totally contrary to human nature, since the biases are ingrained in us. So was there an experience or a moment or a story that made you think, okay, I was similar to all human beings before, where I was a slave to my biases, but no more, I'll be careful and make sure to do not just follow blindly that in-group or confirmation bias, etc. And I'll be more open minded, and maybe a story about when you did that, and it was so fruitful and beneficial. Martijn Lancee 11:15 Sounds good. When I when I was eight years old, I grew up in the northern part of the Netherlands with my mom and my sister and his village of 60,000 people very close to a farm where they were producing flowers. And at age eight, I took a wheelbarrow and I went through one of the farmers and asked, Can I please get some of these flowers in my wheelbarrow? Let's start with 50. And then I will sell them door to door and I'll come back to you with the money and then we split 5050. And that experience was really fun. Because I knocked that day and knocked on about 200 different doors. And I realized there's every one is different. When you talk to 200 people in one day, you realize some are in an extremely good mood. And I would like to talk with you. Some are in bad moods, and they don't want to talk with you some some people thought that I was stealing the flowers from the farm and immediately kicked me away. And other people were intrigued that this young guy was at their door selling flowers. So I think for me, it was eye opening in the sense that there's a lot of different people out in this world. But still, that was just one small village in the Netherlands. And then when I started traveling at a young age, so now I'm 35 years old, and I've been very fortunate to travel to 86 countries. And the reason why I always wanted to travel is to really learn and understand different cultures. So at a young age, I decided to move to Barbados to get closer to my father, which was amazing. And I'm very close to both of my parents today. And they're they're awesome people. And having that first experience of moving from the Netherlands to go to Barbados, which is in the Caribbean, predominantly black. A completely different accent. Even though it's English, it's hard to understand the beginning to beautiful paradise island. But if you live there, and you finish your high school, they're just dealing with completely. It's just life and life as usual. Right. And I think that first experience when you live abroad is really important because you learn one, you are new, everyone else has already been there for a long time. So it's your responsibility to adapt, and make friends and make friends is relatively easy. As long as you are really interested in people and you love people. And you ask a lot of questions. And people like it typically when you're interested in their in their in their lives. And that was that was a good success. But those things didn't really resonate to me until I moved to another country so that I went to Spain for half a year. And I remember my time over Beta struggling in the beginning, because I wasn't really making any friends. To most people there I was really seen as a foreigner who doesn't, you know, appreciate or understand the culture and the music we listened to. Because I would listen to my different types of music, for example. And so the lesson there is really adaptability. But at the same time, don't lose your personality or your authenticity, because some people confuse those two. And I definitely confused them at some point where I thought I was doing the right thing by being adaptive. But in fact, I was pushing away my own personality, to be liked by other people. But I think there's a there's a sweet, medium and in the middle, where you can do both. You can continue to be your authentic self, but you can also be adaptable and meet other people through sculptures. And I think the more you travel, especially across different continents that are not similar to one another. There's just so much to learn how people live their lives differently from you know, what you think was possible growing up in one village. And I think there's so much value in that because if you've if you've been exposed to this cultures different people, then it's a little easier to walk in their shoes and to understand how they feel, and how they think about the role and maybe how they like to be approached by you, in order to build a relationship. And that means that you, once you've travelled a little bit more, it becomes a lot easier to make connections, you can say, Oh, actually, I speak one word in your language, I've been there. And I understand that part of your culture. And that dish was delicious. And immediately you have a connection. And you also become less harsh and less judgmental, because you realize there's just not one good way to live. There's, there's not one group of people or culture that's better than the other. Everyone has a different culture. And there's a lot of beauty and fun to explore all these different cultures and take the bits and pieces that you love and try to somehow integrate them into your life. That's, that's really what I remember from from traveling and the value that I get from that. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 16:05 What I am hearing is that you love to learn. And I'm gonna comment, two things you spoke about in Barbados, how it was different, difficult to make friends. But when you moved to Spain, it clicked that you need to be interested in people ask questions, which is one of the Maxim's of self development that your weakness today will be your strengths tomorrow, because you have a big, big motivation and incentive to work on it. And the second is, there is a legend in in advertising. In from the 1900s, early 1900s. His name is Claude Hopkins, and he has a book called My Life in advertising, which is his autobiography. And in it, he has similar experience where he says, As a child, he took a comic book to his uncle, who came to visit. And he was tell him, look, look, this is so interesting, I love it so much. And his uncle didn't care. It was like, I don't care. And that was he said, in that moment, I understood that what I love, doesn't mean that other people will love. So I should spend my life learning about other people, because I cannot really predict how other people are because they're not me. But before that moment, he thought everyone was similar to him, which is similar to what you spoke about, when you knocked on the doors of 200 people or more to sell those 50 flowers, then you discovered some people can be grumpy, some very friendly, some other people can be stingy, maybe some other people rude, other people, they will just support you, bye, bye. And some are flower lovers. Some are romantic. I'm sure there are all these variations. So to ask you about this, I'm noticing that in many ways, the biggest incentive you have to learn about other cultures is self improvement and learning in that you learn about people Yes, and you get to know them, which is beautiful. And you discover new relationships, which is great. And to take parts from everything to create the new or better you that is made from the best of what exists out there. And you can only know it by discovering it. Did I understand correctly? Or? If not? Or if yes, can you comment on this and share about your learning philosophy and drives. Martijn Lancee 18:34 As soon as that was impressive. The way you played it back is exactly what I tried to say. But you said it in a much more eloquently way. I'm also impressed by how your brain works, I feel like you have you have 1000s of books just just in your head and ready to use that knowledge whenever whenever you want. But that's that's exactly it, I think, you know, my learning is that you grew up in a small village somewhere, even a big city, that is your world. That's all you know. And then, you know, obviously, I'm 35 now, so then the Internet came and you're a little bit more exposed to what else is out there. But unless you, you know, it's one thing to read a book about a different culture, and you'll learn a little bit about it. And if that's the first book, you read about a different culture, it will feel like a lot. So that's a great first step. But I really do believe that, you know, you if you go out there and you really smell a place and engage with someone and ask lots of questions. There's just so much value in that and you know, you don't have to be rich to travel. I slept in many $2 A night hostels, and that was fine. And typically that's the best way to travel anyway, once you're still young and you don't really need that type of comfort. You'll meet a lot of people because you're sharing a room. You know, there's just 20 beds set up in one hospital and I wish I could still do that now. I have a family and You know, it's just especially with COVID, somewhat impossible. But yes, that's, that's, that's absolutely correct. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 20:06 Thank you very much. And for the kind words, I do that actually with people, I invite them, they speak about their startup. And then I look for what is like the structure of good marketing. And then in the end of the episode, they just give them the structured marketing thing. And they seem to like it and say similar things to you that I say it so nicely. So thank you, I'm glad that I can do it with people do, not just about like, startup ideas to ask you though, something, which is, although now I keep thinking about the Rotterdam or what I used to go there also to hostels and stay and meet so many great people. So that's now the thought on my mind that it was very nice for 10 euros a night, you can have a really nice bed with really cool people who are exploring the city or coming there. And it's so many lives intersecting, like in those TV theories, or in those books where you go to the tavern. And there are travelers from all over the world, just speaking and sharing stories about the distant lands. And that's I guess, hostels are the modern day to meet fellow travelers from distant places and feel a bit like a pirate of the Caribbean. Which is very nice. I would like to ask you one thing, do you have a big huge mistake in your life that happened or that you did? And then you thought, Oh, my God, this is bad. And I will make sure to never be in this situation, or to do this again? And then what precautions or changes did you like did this lead to in your life so that from then afterwards, you knew that you were living better? Martijn Lancee 22:00 Love those questions? I think there's two things. I don't have any examples right now. But I'll explain what I mean. And then hopefully, my examples will come later. So I think one, the mistake of not taking responsibility. For example, I have done many things wrong in my life have made many mistakes at work at school, or maybe how, you know, I treated people sort of being interested, maybe I was not interested or disrespectful at times, even especially when I was a lot younger. And I think that's, that's a missed opportunity. Because if you don't take responsibility, if you don't apologize for what you've done wrong, and show that you take that ownership, you can never be happy, you can never be a real leader, you can never be trusted or respected that anyone. So they take your responsibility is really important, and everything you do in your life. And especially when you do something wrong, right, we all make mistakes, it's human to make mistakes. It's part maybe it's bad judgment, maybe it's like a fan experience. So I think if you make a mistake, and really focus on the lesson to be learned, that is the most important thing. And funnily enough, like human beings, we have the capability to have a bird's eye perspective and analyze your own behavior. But we hardly ever use it. It's so much easier to ask your partner or a really close friend or family member like, Hey, tell me, you know, how did I do in that interview? How did I, you know, come across in that talk we had? And can you please let me pay? Can you please give me your feedback and your honest feedback, because that's the best way to learn. I think that's one, the other one where I say what I've done in the past, if you make one mistake, and then you try to cover it up with a second mistake, it always gets worse. It's like you build up this compound, or loose of karma, and it will come back to you and bite you in the rear. Because if you make one mistake, again, like just take the responsibility and say, Look, I made a mistake. Sorry, this is what I believe I should have done. And I would like to show you my respect for you. Because I want you to acknowledge that I made a mistake. And from now on, I won't. Please give me honest through this promise? And how can I how can I make it better? I think that's in a nutshell, this specific example so many. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 24:22 Well, actually what I am hearing, and correct me if I'm wrong. And my question will be What's your philosophy on leadership because what I'm hearing you repeat the word Trust and trustworthiness. I mean, like you repeat the word trust trust, at least three times now. And what I'm hearing is to you, you are in a phase of your life where leadership is a high value or an important goal. And that leadership to you is like the personification of trustworthiness. But we don't judge our own trustworthiness only. It's because people's perspectives are different than ours. is. So we need feedback on whether we came across in the same way that we meant to be trustworthy. And therefore trust is not really in us. It's an other people that we get by being trustworthy in their own paradigm of the world and their own perspective. Did I understand this thing correctly that I am hearing from you? And whether yes or not? What is your philosophy and biggest lessons about being a leader? Martijn Lancee 25:31 Yes, absolutely. Again, I think you absolutely crushed it, you're completely correct in how you played it back and how you analyze my, my very long version of what could have been a much shorter and concise answer, thank you for doing that. That's a good skill. And you know, what I think about leadership and being a good leader, it's, I think, really good leaders, what they, what they do, and what I try to do, when I'm in a leadership position, or manage people, or people look at me for guidance at work, I want to, again, just be myself my full, authentic self. But also, including showing my vulnerability, that I'm a person, and that I make mistakes. And I have uncertainties. And sometimes, when there's external things happening, even though I try not to spend too much energy on things that I cannot control, sometimes it does take the better off me, for example, 2020 was a rough year for everyone. And sometimes in those tough moments, the best thing you can do is just be honest with yourself. And if someone asks you a colleague, even if it's someone reporting through, like, how are you doing? Actually, right now, I'm not feeling good. You know, and I think showing that vulnerability also shows that you're a real and normal person, which means you can be trusted. Some of those always smiling is often perceived as sort of like a sad clown, like it cannot be real, which is why a lot of times people that are extremely positive all the time, are perceived as not very authentic people, because it's just impossible, it's not human. Even if you're very strong, and you you only focus on the positive, there's always a moment where you know, you need to show your vulnerability as a leader in order again, to build that trust. I think that's one piece of it. The other piece is common showing up in, in how you would like everyone that reports to to show up. So if if you really care about how people treat each other, then you must show and lead by example, to do exactly that. And explain why I think it's one thing just to show it, but I think it's also very important to repeat again and again, why we as a team, or why we as a company, do what we do, and understand why it's important. And in terms of leadership, I also believe that you're really setting the, the beat for the drum sort of speak and the pace. And that means you must have put a lot of thought into how you want to manage your team, or your company. And it's really important that the way that you share this with people comes across very clearly. So it's not just like, Oh, hey, I had this thought, let me share this with you. But actually, no, actually, you know, I've been working on this for quite a while and I'd like to share this deck with you. But before I do so, you know, I'd like to discuss the strategy with you and get your feedback. So we can work on this together. So the other piece is really to get people involved and empower them. And I think, Steve Jobs. Some people really didn't like him some people, but they maybe respected him a lot. Because apparently had a tough personality. And one of the things that I think he did really well is that his philosophy to build a team and a company was that you don't hire good people and tell them what to do. No, you hire good people. So they tell you what to do. Right. And I think it's very true in the sense that only when you fully empower someone to show their value, and you know, they should think for themselves on how they can best help within their role and responsibility, even outside of their own role in that company. That's when you get the best out of people. And that's also what I say to people that you know, report or have reported to me, when they say, Well, I work feeling like that actually worked for you. You know, I'd like I'm here to just help you with everything I know, and navigate certain things in this company. And if that means that you want to get my skills and my expertise, so you can do that somewhere else within a year, because then you can, that's the best career path for you. And I'll support that as well. And I'll pause right there as these because I have a tendency to just keep on talking. But your questions are excellent. So I'd like to know if that made any sense. Thank you. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 30:00 Actually, it is awesome. And there are at least three things that I can contribute, including there was Microsoft executive who left and started his own health care company that will change the Health Care Net landscape for healthier living in the world. And one of the things I remember he said is, the higher you go up in the chain, the less work that you should be doing. And the more you should be doing things to empower your team and other people to do their work rather than doing the work yourself. Because that is not the highest and best use of your time. And I feel and I sense that you're mentioning this, as well as maybe the Gary Vee thing, where he says now that I'm the CEO, I'm basically a babysitter for everyone who works in my company. And the third thing is that Jordan Peterson, I remember it from a lecture where he said, Look, each person, their role to the group is to contribute their own perspective, so that it will add a piece that will reduce the blind spots of the whole group. And therefore you don't tell people what to do, but you receive from them the piece that you're missing that they have inside them. So that all together, you have more pieces, and you see the world from more perspectives. And I sense that that is in many ways, your philosophy for leadership, where you don't try to dictate what the puzzle should be, because that is not reality. And actually, this is why you said you want to be you want to be a normal human being. And I sensed your drive for vulnerability and authenticity is more, as well as not reading about countries but actually experiencing them physically. It's because you value reality, much more than non reality or our own thoughts and mythologies and other things about reality. I feel and I sense that you are more of what iron Rand called the first hander, which means that you value feedback and data from reality over any guesses opinions, or things that are not in direct contact with reality, which she calls second hand, being a second hander are people who get opinions from other people and consider them to be the truth, while more you are you prefer to live in the real world and to experience the world rather than opinions about the world. Did I understand this correctly? And if so, do you have any comment on this? Martijn Lancee 32:46 100%. That's exactly it, and how I try to live my life. And I think, why why that's important. It was very well explained by my current vice president Scott at LinkedIn. Because the first thing when I or someone else on the team makes a mistake, is not like, he basically immediately asked like, Hey, what did you learn from that? What's the key takeaway? And that's so important, because if he just wants to know, like, Okay, but what can we learn from this as a company, so we don't do it again, not be upset, because otherwise people no longer take risks, and without taking risk and exploring different avenues to grow your business. That's not good for the company. So I so much value in that. And the other piece that I think is important, as well as leadership to your point of like, how do you get people to give you feedback, which is very certain culture is very difficult. But I loved it, the Yoda example, in Japan, where every new employee in the factory with after their first week, needs to stand in a red square, and felt tell everybody in management, where there's room for improvement. And especially in that culture, it's very, it's not typical to share that sort of feedback, especially upwards. And I think it's, it's great that upwards, feedback is also valued so much and actually rewarded. And that's another thing that LinkedIn, I think we do really well. And leadership in particular is that we don't only celebrate the deals that we do that are good. We also celebrate the deals, we decide to not do things sometimes especially a business development strategy, m&a type of business fields, people will have the drive to close a deal, sign a deal. But it's very important to realize when you have to walk away from a deal or recommend against resourcing and investing in it. That's also a skill. So in order to celebrate that to say, Oh, we've worked really hard on this for three months, and we decided not to do it for these reasons. And these are the lessons we take from that to your point again, like that reality without making assumptions and without caring too much. Should about, you know, the emotional side of things, but really focusing on the date data we have, and writing it down and documented as well is super important, I think just, again, be authentic and, and it shows your character, your values, and through that you will build trust in your personal and your professional life. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 35:17 Thank you actually, it's wonderful. You're saying so many great things. One, it reminds me of Edward de Bono, I am sure, I hope at least you know Him who is from Malta. And since the 70s, or even the 60s, he is the foremost expert on creativity and ideation. And he has like 40 books. Anyway, I read many of them because I love the guy. And Creativity to me is fascinating. And there was a section where he said, Look, there is no limit to improvement, anything even what is working well, now, if you dedicate time to find ideas to make it better, you will make it better. It's not always worth it to do so. But it's always worth it to spend time trying to improve what exists. And the second is, I read a story about Thomas Edison, although I watched that new movie about Nikola Tesla, and it wasn't showing there. But that each time an experiment failed in his lab, he would dance actually, and people will think he's crazy. And he will say, Well, we found one way that things don't work so we can eliminate it. And know that we are closer, where we learned something that allows us to be closer to what works. But finally, I want to ask you, I mean, not finally as final question, but finally in this whole thing, whole segment or whatever, you spoke about uncertainty and that if you have uncertainty, you should be transparent about it. And that is perfect. As well, as you said that you should record any learnings that you have any things that worked or didn't work, which is very valuable. But at the same time, it's like Nietzsche, what Nietzsche says is that we are humans who need certainty in an uncertain world. And therefore many times we create certainty that isn't even in the real world. But it seems to us because our brain is a pattern creation mechanism. So to you as who you are, how do you approach that possibility that in life, things might make sense, but they're not real. They're just we live in in a probabilistic world. And something can be a pattern for some time. And we think that we learned it. But if we don't challenge those assumptions, maybe in one year or five years, they're not true anymore. But we consider them as learning and we're proud of them. So in general, how do you deal with uncertainty? How do you approach both learning and having some certainty while understanding that we live in a world that is only only a probabilistic world and there is no guarantee that anything that worked before will work again, like those financial return warnings? Or what do you call them? Like, those small things where they say, Oh, we had 20% ROI in the last 10 years, and then they say, past performance does not guarantee future results. So can you please comment on this? Martijn Lancee 38:17 I think it's an incredible question. I also feel like we're, we're entering the role of the matrix to some extent, it's a very deep question. I love it. Because it's also somewhat philosophical, I think, you know, how do I deal with uncertainty? How do I make sense of, you know, how do I battle some of this bias of Regency right, for example, we had 20% profits last quarter, just as an example. So we expect again, about the presets, and why I think, in one word, reflection is really important. So every at the end of each day, and at the end of each week, and especially in the weekend, when you get a really a break, it's I find it really important to reflect on my week, and focus on the few things to your point, exactly. When was there a lot of bias in here? And what is this really based on? And should we continue to think that way? I think it's important that we understand what we do and why we do it. And unfortunately, I do see a lot of people that are effectively sailing boats without a rather meaning they just go wherever the wind blows them, and then they complain and are unhappy about where to end up because they end up stranded on some beach somewhere. As to if you know, if you put the rudder in yourself and you you you learn how to sail and take control over your life and you write down what your goals are, you will become a lot happier and more effective thing whatever you try to do both professionally and personally. Right. So for me, what I do at the end of his work day is look again at my calendar the day after and I decided okay, these are the three big hairy goals I want to accomplish tomorrow. And that's where I'll focus my energy on and for me that really works. Because otherwise you just wake up and you start answering emails Listen, that's also the running joke at most of these big tech companies in Silicon Valley, people ask you what to do, or you typically answer, I'm an inbox manager, right? There's between 200 to 500 emails flying around every day. And if that's really what you do, you're just, you're wasting your energy on something that you know other people want you to do. But you should really focus on what's important for your growth, your company's growth in your career. So I think reflecting is important, because only when to reflect, take a step back, take a breath. For me, it's, for example, surfing going out in the ocean, and only when there's absolutely no time to think that's when these things happen. For some people, it's taken a shower, and that's all of a sudden, when you have that time to reflect you think of something and take a lesson from that. And then that's your question in terms of how to deal with uncertainty, I would actually flip that question around. And I would say, I thrive on uncertainty, I love it, which is, you know, one of the reasons why I, I tried to challenge myself every day in terms of my job, I don't think I have job security at all, I don't want to have job security, I want to continue to think of other things to do and built in the company. And even to be super candid. I also, you know, when when a recruiter reaches solid time, sometimes interested to hear more about the role, even if it's just learned from from somebody from the company. And if it's a BD person, I would love to share notes and strategies to help out in terms of uncertainty, I think you can you can train yourself to enjoy it, rather than to be afraid of it. And and have it use it to your benefit. There's I think, I don't know who said those. But somebody wants said, I think it's even a song. There's only two things certain in life, right? It's death and taxes. So everything else is effectively uncertain. And I think that's also the beauty of life that we don't really know what's going on. I would not like to know, for example, what happens tomorrow. And there's, it's just too much fun right now to do it this way. So but I do I do believe and I'll keep it's just 30 more seconds. I'd love to hear your next question and keep this really fun conversation going. I surf sometimes big waves. And it's at that point where you're pedaling. Really, you're judging when a wave comes in a big one, and you're judging it to understand, Okay, I'm gonna make this and from which part? Should I start pedaling? And will I make the drop or not? There is no you have to fully commit when you surf big waves. Because if you don't, you will most likely go over the lip over the falls and Wipeout and it will hurt. And sometimes you fully commit, and you still crash. But there's also the value in that because I think you said this earlier on, you know, it's about repetition. And your brain is a muscle just like any other muscle in your body and how you act and function is also just muscle memory. And, you know, practice makes permanent. Practice doesn't make perfect practice makes permanent, the more you do something, and the more you learn about it, the better you get at it. And I think for me surfing and fully committing to big waves helps me to also fully commit to things that I strongly believe in. Because if you don't fully commit, for sure, it will not work. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 43:05 This is awesome. And I remember that perfect practice makes perfect. It's not only practice, which is that what you're saying? Well, it reminds me now I feel like an encyclopedia. But it reminds me of three books. One by James Webb young, it's called the technique for producing ideas and it's short. And he uses that ability like how to fill your subconscious with the data to let it just digest it so that when you're surfing or you're showering, the idea was come. So it's more about using that process, and systematizing it and he wrote it in 1940 It actually was a speech he gave and it's the transcript of his speech. And it's a wonderful, wonderful book. The second thing book is by Leonard I can't really always say his name correctly, but it's like law D now or modern law or something which is called how randomness rules our lives. And it works in what you were mentioning about how things are we don't have any certainty. There are only two things in life that are certain death and taxes and and while some people are trying to say that while taxes will be certain but that's not for a long time and about committing in Jim's camps book which is start with no which is a negotiation book. There is a section where he talks about his time as a fighter pilot in the US Air Force and what his surgeons always told him make decisions all the time commit to a decision why if it's wrong, you will can change it make another decision and you'll change it again. Which also reminds me of something that the Navy SEALs say they say okay, they say many funny things like embrace the suck or the only easy day was yes Today, they say 9070 50, which is that any decision you make 90% of the time, you only have 70% of the information you need, and 50% of the time, you'll be wrong. So make another decision. So that's their motto that they teach it, you know, they teach to the Navy SEALs that 90% of the time be comfortable that you'll only have 70% of the information you need and that you will be 50% of the time wrong. So make it again, about this. I would like to ask you about what do you do that makes you have that more that access, success, results, creativity, etc, that you notice most people don't do? Like, what is the difference? Or the elusive obvious as Moshe Feldenkrais calls it in his book, which is so obvious, yet elusive to everyone? What is that thing that differentiates you that you try to do? Maybe I am guessing it will be the reflection and self awareness and authenticity. But what else that you notice? And people that if they did it more like you do, there'll be more success in the world and more effectiveness. Martijn Lancee 46:15 That uses I love everything you said. And just to come back to your, you know, committing to decisions, I fully agree with you, it's better to make a decision and not make a decision, because then some one else will make it for you. And at least if you make the decision, it's based on your information on everything you believe is correct. However, in that process, there's also it's really important to get feedback from people around you, right? And I think how I measure my my friendships and my relationships is by if they can give me constructive feedback, if they if they can point out, hey, Martin, you know what you did here yesterday, I don't think you should have done it that way. I think you should have this way. For that reason, it's might be difficult for you to hear. But I think it's important because of value or friendship. And I love that. Because if you just have people around you that say yes to everything, you're not really getting any value from this people. And again, as Steve Jobs, for example, I think he was really good at it. He, for example, would have a few people in the room, not introduced them. And then he would ask his head of mergers and acquisitions. What what do you think of this, this this software company? And then that head of merger m&a would say, actually, I think is rubbish. It's super overvalued, we should definitely look consider it. And then Steve would say, Well, this is their code. This is our co founder and CEO, I want you to meet. And if that person that works, and reports to Steve would have not been honest, he would have been fired. So it's not about creating comfort, it's all about creating honesty, which again, comes back to trust and trust is being consistent over time. So to answer your question, like what, you know, how do I attribute the success that I have had in my life, both personally and professionally, it's really about building relationships, and, and having the capability to build new relationships. And it's really a combination of bringing my full self to work. But sometimes it's not easy, I can be quite goofy and laugh a lot and make a lot of jokes sometimes can be interpreted, especially in American business culture in Silicon Valley, too, as you know, not being mature enough or not being serious enough. So there's a fine, there's a balance there that I walk almost every day, but building those relationships. And building that trust is really the recipe to my success. And then the so that is a personality that I have developed over the years, but it's also just who I am, and my character. And that comes because of my environment. And growing up in different places, and obviously, my parents and my sister. But then the other piece that is really important that some some professionals sometimes tend to not focus on as much as I think you should, if you want to be successful is focus on being really the best at what you do. And if possible in an area, then not a lot of people know what to do and how to be great at it. Because if you create create your scar city in the field of work, then companies will come after you people would want to work with you, investors will come to you and ask for your opinion. So you know now I'm doing a little bit of consultancy on the side because people have found out that I am the preload specialist within Silicon Valley and there's only about 50 people in Silicon Valley and globally that know that so it's really a quadrant to buy to where in order to be successful. And to me also happy success I measure really is happy and the depth of my relationships is a combination of doing something you're really good at and preferably the best and if so, it's something that's not Just everybody, for example, selling advertisements, everybody can learn how to do it. And there's a lot of people that do that. So that's not very scars from that perspective. And then the other part is just your personality and being trustworthy and, and having the ability to connect with people and build that trust, in the minimum time possible. Because if people trust you, they they're more likely to listen, and really listen. And and then they're more likely to vouch for you and support your project and support your whatever you need to build together as a team, again, have the tendency to to go away over time. So I'll pause right there. Hopefully, I did ask a question as he's let me know, please. Thank you. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 50:40 It's wonderful. And now I'm thinking, look, you understand the human biases, and actually the meta bias, which is that we cannot really fully see ourselves because we are ourselves. So we are in that system. Yes, yeah. You spoke about going meta, or having that bird's eye view. But to know this, what are the stories or the anecdotes or those experiences that let you know, the signal from the noise to understand, okay, I have this skill, this is a scarce skill, I will be one of the best in the world at it, because what happens to most humans is that there is so much noise, it's not easy to know what that sliver of genius can be or would be. So what would be your advice to people in finding their scarce ability? And did you have a story or an experience that guided you and let you know? Okay, now I got it. I know what I can be really scarcely great at and one of the best in the world and be happy. Martijn Lancee 51:47 Love that question. I think in business school, and in general, especially when you're when you're you know, when, for example, you're growing up, you see, you're made to believe that you should follow a certain pattern or to be successful. It's effectively why people go to go to school universities read books, it's like, what's the formula? If I do a plus b plus c equals success, happiness, etc. But oftentimes, I don't think there is a formalized as for that type of success and happiness, I really think someone should figure it out for themselves and be authentic. I think authenticity again, is sort of like the, the most important attributes to one success. Because if you're trying to be someone else, and just follow a formula, people will feel that people see that. And that's typically not how deep relationships are built. And so I agree absolutely, with what you said, for me the first time that I really learned like, Okay, I have completely missed the signals here. And I've made a mistake. So from now on, I'm going to focus more on this is when I was so when I was studying in Rotterdam, just just one year after year, same same university, same litigation, same great master's degree. I was also part time working three different jobs. But the one that I was working at the time was, this is an example from Suitsupply. So I was selling suits, so I was dressed up suit, I shoes, everything and then disclaims walked in, he asked like, Hey, where are the size 50 suits, I'm looking for something subtle, because I work in Finance. So I showed him where the suits are, he put one on. And he looked at the sleeve length that popped underneath the suit. And he said, I'd like this to be a little bit more subtle, it should only be half a centimeter, I don't want to show this much shirt underneath my suit sleeve. And I immediately responding to what I thought was the truth. And what I strongly believed and was educated at the time that actually you should show more like a centimeter and a half, two centimeters. Because when you show more fabric, it breaks more in nicer with the suit. And it it basically boosts how you look and how people perceive you. And that's also the ethic as how people were in the professional world. And he said, Sure, but this is how I personally prefer it. And I said, okay, but I didn't really understand the lesson for me was that I already knew that if I had looked at his body language, I could have caught those signals. And I could have not made myself look like a fool. I was just trying to sell something by not listening, I should have listened. And listening. Sometimes it's not just in words, but it's in body language. So my key takeaway for this and what I've applied to the rest of my life after the moment, that sort of light bulb moment for me was like, okay, really focus on people's body language, because they're sending a signal. And if you get that early enough, you can change the narrative, you can change the conversation, you can still come out winning and another example would be executive communication for me. So you know, now that I am much closer to big tech companies and there and there's See stuff executives, sometimes it's hard for me to make the shift from when I walk out from lunch and just having fun chat with somebody, or send a quick email to someone, right already think too much about what I say. But in executive communication, it's completely different, you have to be very concise, you have to be very precise, you really have structure, because these executives receive 1000s and 1000s of messages and emails every day, and they just don't have the time to read your very long email. So it needs to be very concise email. And if you say something, make sure it makes sense. So you don't have to repeat yourself. And in a room in San Francisco with some of these executives, I just remember that I started rambling, and I went on and on, and everybody was confused. And that was my cue to read their body language to say, Okay, this is time for me to just say, quick recap. This is what this is what I meant. And this is what we should do. Thank you any questions, that's all. So be very concise, ask feedback, always ask feedback, because that's the moment that when you show your vulnerability, you've made a recommendation. So you're not, you're not incompetent, you're actually confidence in what you know. But you're also open to learn and get feedback from everyone else wanted to make a better, better decision. So I think those those are my like, key takeaways. And it's about body language. But then also, I'd like to make the link that it's about your gut feeling. And most of the time, when I don't follow my gut, I make the wrong decision. So I think just trusting your gut and going with your gut, there's, there's a lot of, it's difficult to make a mistake if you go with your gut. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 56:35 Great. So if I understood you correctly, this is like the structure, you follow your gut. And when you are aligned and behaving in the way that your gut is telling you, you are being vulnerable and authentic. And when you show are vulnerable and authentic, you are doing your best in that moment. But then you open your eyes to the feedback from people to know what you are doing, whether it's actually the right thing or the effective thing, or the kind thing that will get them the message or the result that that communication is aimed at or that interaction or that productive situation. And then I have a question that might be a bit interesting. If you are getting feedback, which you mentioned a while ago, we've been speaking for a while. And maybe this is like the longest episode in my bag. But it's also the most valuable that when you did not listen to feedback, or even when you were in Barbados, and you were not so showing so much of that interest? Well, you said that it's about if you're fully yourself, you can be not so relatable to people. So let me ask you, does it mean when you're being authentic, but learn from feedback, you are becoming the next version of the authentic you. And then you get feedback, and you're always changing who you are, but not because you're hiding your personality? But because you're evolving that personality based on the feedback? Is this what I'm understanding that your process is to show at your best each moment and become the next best version based on feedback? Or is this a bit of what people might understand as well? Tell people and do what people want, so that they will smile at you and be happy that you agree with them? Which I know you don't agree with? So can you comment on this? Martijn Lancee 58:37 I love that question. I think it's really important for everyone to ask themselves that question. And I asked myself often as a sanity check is, am I am I losing a piece of my personality here, if I comply with what people want me to be like, say things they want me to say? Dress, how they dress talk like they thought etc? Or to your point? You know, no, this is actually how I evolved my personality. And I prefer this personality and how I am. I think as long as you and ask that question to yourself, and you agree that it doesn't come at a price of losing a piece of yourself, you're a good you're in a good spot. Because that means you you feel good with the decision of what you're learning and how you're shifting your personality. In that sense. I think everyone's personality is quite rigid. And there's not a ton of change you can do. But I think you can learn a lot and you can you can make slight changes that will make a big difference in terms of your success and happiness in life. And what do you what you said earlier on, I think the other important thing, especially here in the US, especially if IK is in the valley, is that yes, you're right. It's about being authentic and vulnerable. However, it's also about being humble, but confidence and sometimes people mistake that with arrogance. I've been arrogant. You know, this is what you said earlier on as well, like sometimes you chase, I realized, wow, eight years ago, I was actually quite arrogant at some of these business meetings and probably there for not very effective in building that relationship with those partners. And then I realized, okay, I should have not the arrogance, good to be confident, which have to be humble. And you can only be humble, if you ask for feedback. And if you show that you're authentic and vulnerable, if not, then people, they sense that they sense that you're just trying to be someone you're not. And that means it's not authentic. And because of authentic, they're probably not going to trust you. Because why would everything else you say be true. So that's why I write down all the feedback I get, especially the parts of their most constructive, most negative, most interesting for me to learn. And I keep it in a Google document that I read at least once a year. And there's there's just a lot of good part for me. And sometimes it's a good important memory to go back and reflect and learn. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 1:00:55 I love that which now the question that is popping into my mind that I was actually wanting to respect your time. And and but it's important, Peter Drucker, the amazing guy, I love him. He says that in business, there are only three things that lead to profit, and everything else is an expense. And you are mentioned in relationships a lot. What he says, look in your business, marketing, innovation, and relationships, that those are the sources of profit, everything else is an expense. What is your perspective on this thought and this axiom that he shared with the world? Does it match your experience? Or do you have different thoughts on this? Martijn Lancee 1:01:37 That's a great question. Give me Give me five seconds to think about this one, I think on relationships, yes. To your point, because everything I shared already in terms of what I've learned, and the mistakes have made, marketing? Yes. Because, especially in my business. So for what I do, for example, is I work with product teams used to work with the product teams at Google, working with the product team very closely at LinkedIn to understand okay, how do we get people to find value in our platform, and specifically, our mobile app, and there's part of that is just organic, because it's a great product, people will find it organically download it, love it, tell their friends about it, and that's how you're gonna grow. However, in my experience, you know, sometimes people, these companies spent millions of dollars in engineering to make that app and that product and platform incredible, but then if you're going to grow is not providing the profits to make it justifiable, then you should probably, you know, spend more on marketing, could be advertising, it could be could be, you know, if you don't have a big budget, you can be very creative about it. But without marketing, people don't understand your message might not get the message might get the wrong message. Because you're just leaving it out there. You don't, you know, define what your marketing strategy should be. Nike, for example, is incredible. Their marketing has been the same. For for for decades now. Always focus on the athletes always focus with the positive but very real message, and incredibly strong, strong messages from their marketing team. And that's why they're still winning innovation, the third one, I think, yes, because not doing anything extending is going back. Or it's not just like you're standing still in town, which actually going back because everyone around you will always innovate, which is one of the reasons why, if you look at like the top five tech companies in the world, they require hundreds of startups each year, because they realize at their size, even though they incentivize people to come up there, they're all employees, they come with ideas, they have these internal incubators, it's very difficult to still innovate at that, at that size, because there's so much red tape, etc, etc. So that's why they tend to choose by four or 500 startups, for the reasons that they do very innovative, and they need to integrate it into their own company, but also because of the people at those companies that are very innovative and have a very creative minds. And they need that type of talent in the company, to rub off on other people, and also to start critically looking at the current processes in place in order to become more more innovative. And obviously Elon Musk, you mentioned him before he is I think, the best example he never really wanted to build an electric car but since no one else was doing it he decided look for climate change for the world. We need to so I'll do it. And then he same for space travels, same for for traffic movements of people transport so now the boring company is making it very cost efficient, better for the environment and better for everyone effectively to start moving, in essence so I agree with those three I think, as with everything it's it's a model that And in this case, this model works with the examples that have shed, for me, at least in my experience working in Silicon Valley for about a decade now. But there's probably a lot more things we can add to those lists. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 1:05:12 Great, actually, it's wonderful. So I'll take advantage of this ask you about, like a strategy for life, actually. But it's that the VC model of investing or of trying projects or whatever, that they expect 90%, to not be that great, but that, that 10% or less will give them like 100x, and therefore pay for everything else that failed and more, or the Robert Kiyosaki where he said, one, that nine out of 10, businesses fail. So I started 10 Different businesses so that it's okay, if nine fail, I'll always be winning, do you believe because there are some people that say, look, success, if you look at successful people, whether Amazon, or people like that, they put all their eggs in one basket, and that allowed them the focus to have that big success, while other people say you have to never bet the farm to make small bets, to try different things, knowing that 95% will fail. And you're always searching for something that shows signs that it will be a success. And then you focus on that, but never ever, ever focused on like you said fully commit 100% to one thing, you should always have options, because you know that 95% or 99% will fail. So, which camp Do you espouse? Or both maybe? Or a hybrid? Do you believe that in those people who say, put your eggs in one basket no matter what people say, when you look back at success, it was always someone who was crazy enough to bet everything on one thing? Or do you say, try as many projects as you can? And then look for signs of life and follow those? Martijn Lancee 1:07:06 That's that's a great question. And I have a lot of friends who are entrepreneurs. So this is a question that actually comes up very often, when I when I talk to them. And before I answer your question, which I will directly answer, I will always say this statistically, you're right, only one out of 10 at best, make it right, the rest rest spills. So statistically, we would have to say, okay, don't put all your eggs in one basket and build 10 Different companies, because only one of them goes to cheat. My answer is a hybrid model, because I think it's important to fully commit, but pivot when you need to. And that comes back to your point around innovation. I think very often what I've seen with my friends and relatives in the Bay Area, is that when they start their company, they really focus on that original idea of hat. And then a year later, they're still stuck with that idea. Even though it doesn't work, the market fits not there, they're losing money, they keep on investing in the same thing to see if something changes, maybe all of a sudden the market need will be there. But that's effectively the definition of insanity. Right? If you're doing the same thing, you expect a different outcome. So that point that successful entrepreneurs that I've seen around the two things that fully commit these three things that if they fully commit fully committed, but they pivot, when they realize, oh, hang on, we have to continue receiving feedback, continue exploring this business case and environment we operate in, and what is our position within this environment. And if we need to, we need to pivot so that we can take the opportunity where it is, if our idea was great two years ago, but it's no longer is, let's just not have our egos blocked that. And let's focus on what we should be doing. That's the second thing. The third thing is have a deadline for yourself. So when you talk to successful entrepreneurs, they often say, if the company doesn't work within three years, quit, just forget about it, start a new one. Because if you start entrepreneurship business building at age, for example, 30, then you probably have the energy and the guts to do it for maybe 20 years up until you're 50 years old, if you really start companies from scratch. So if you give yourself a deadline, that means you can to your point three times slowly, you can start seven or eight businesses if you want, and at least one of those statistically should be should be correct. So that's my experience, what I've seen and what I've learned and what I believe. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 1:09:40 You're welcome. Look, I don't want to take too much of your time, although this can go on forever. This whole conversation and the last section that you mentioned now reminds me of a great book that I highly recommend even to you that you read it, which is by Brian Christian. It's called algorithms to live by the computers science of human decisions. And in it, he presents all kinds of algorithms that computers use that humans can use to make a decision about like, which house to choose when they buy and when to stop house hunting, and choose the best one. Or if they had track of good experience with restaurants, one, if they begin to have bad service, how long to give it a chance before giving up or any kinds of decisions that have something that in, in algorithmic sciences and computer sciences can be used by humans to be more effective decision makers in different scenarios in life. And I love that book. And they also have things in it that they accept, they say, for example, there are problems like the salesman's dilemma where there is no algorithm that can solve it. And therefore, those cannot be solved by computers, unless it's through brute force, and therefore, as a human, well make the easiest choice that you can make. Martin, it's wonderful. And you're amazing. If you have any, like concluding remarks or words to share with the listener. And if they wish to follow you to learn more to know more about what you do and your thoughts, what links should they go to include in link then, of course, I'm sure that is necessary. Martijn Lancee 1:11:26 Thank you so much. This is this this was this was a lot of fun. And I learned a ton from you, I will definitely buy Brian Christian's book. Thanks so much for that recommendation, I hope for your audience. This was, you know, there was something valuable. So I will conclude by saying that, for me, it was very valuable, and for most of my successful friends around me is write down who you want to be. What are your values, and, and live by those values and be consistent, because that's, that's really what success is. And I find that once you have a clear understanding of who you want to be in his life, then you will find success naturally. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 1:12:03 Thank you. And any length or ways that people if they wish to follow you to know what you're up to? Or you're posting anything? Where? Martijn Lancee 1:12:12 Yes, please, LinkedIn. So my, my full name is Martin lancy, spelled n A R T ijn. lancy. And if you reach out to me over LinkedIn, I will always respond, and I would love the love the dark and connect. So thank you very much for that opportunity, as is Thank you. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 1:12:33 You are welcome. I will make sure in the description to put your LinkedIn URL, as well as full name. And thank you honestly, I wish you a wonderful 2021 to you and everyone that you love and to the listener. And this was amazing. I will be happy honor than glad to share this with my audience. And I wish you a great day. Martijn Lancee 1:12:58 Thank you so much. This This was really again, this was really fun and interesting. And I learned a lot more from you that you've learned from me that I'm sure about so I think there's a lot of wisdom that you shared with me and I yeah your your audience is lucky to have you. Thank you