Episode Transcript
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 0:00
Once upon a time, there were 10s of 1000s of makers struggling every day they build for hours and hours but didn't ship and didn't earn enough income. One day, the no Caldwell's podcast came to help them find a way because of this, makers became founders and live the life they deserve. Because of that founders live lives of abundance, freedom, and creativity. That's what I'm really all about. Hello, my name is Aziz and from being a poor boy born to a single mother in North Africa, with no opportunities just sheer hard work, to failing multiple startups, yet learning a whole lot to barely escaping alive the war in Ukraine even living as an illegal immigrant. I've lost everything twice. And now I'm rebuilding my life. One more time, 1% a day, sharing the wisdom of luminaries I've interviewed on this podcast from Google executives to Amazon, Microsoft, Forbes, Technology Council, Harvard Financial Times, and even a priest from the Vatican church. Everyone is welcome here. So let's begin. My guest today is Dr. Lenz Cummings. Dr. Cummings is an associate professor in the Professional Writing Program at the University of North Carolina, Wilmington where he researches and teaches writing in technologically and linguistically complex environments. Many of his current publications, look at the interrelationship between technology, writing, and cultural history and can be found in journals like rhetoric, professional communication, and globalization, Computers and Writing and rest rhetorical. Dr. Cummings has more recently been exploring how the rise of the creative economy has changed digital writing, so he writes about AI workflows for creatives, looking to develop original and differentiated content online. Dr. Cummings, how are you today?
Lance Cummings 2:27
I'm doing great. Thanks for inviting me on this podcast. This is gonna be fun.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 2:32
I agree. I'm ready. I feel blessed and grateful, optimistic, and gonna enjoy this a lot. So do you and let's take it to basics. What is the story of AI workflows that all that making creativity or the work of writers or creators within the Creator? Economy easier, better different? Tell me more?
Lance Cummings 3:01
Yes, so I've really just started exploring artificial writing tools, just out of curiosity, I started playing around with them. And I really started thinking about them. In our heads, we often think about artificial writing, oh, it's going to be this robot that is just generating material. We've even maybe seen some articles that artificial, you know, writers have created, we interact with, you know, Robo chat bots, and things like that. But the more I played around with many of these tools, they looked more like what we would call in my field, conventional tools. So especially for people who are experienced with writing, and are doing lots of it, it's easy to see artificial intelligence as more of a creative tool than necessarily, you know, a replacement for writers or, you know, it's often sold as you know, you can write a blog and you know, 10 minutes and be done. So, it's kind of this idea that it makes our that makes the, the, the the tedious work of writing easier for us, which I think in some degree, it can and and can be that tool, but what I found what most powerful about artificial writing tools is the way that it can generate new ideas, which is obviously part of the writing process and and also offer up many more possibilities. So in my field, so I study a rhetorical theory, which actually goes way back to ancient Greece and in you know, so I do a lot of research in the writing process. And we often ignore the this one of the most important stages is the conventional stage, coming up with ideas, figuring out what we're going to say and Um, you know, we we get across that by we, you know, we do a lot of things to come up with ideas. You know, we go chat with people on Twitter, we read some articles on Wikipedia, we do research at the library we Google, we talked to our friends we talked to, we listened to podcasts like this one. We go chat with people on LinkedIn. Well, I think artificial intelligence is just going to be another one of those things in the writing process sometime soon, actually. And so one of the things I'm trying to hash out with my writing these days is, is to help creatives and writers understand how to use artificial intelligence, in a way that creates, generates creative and innovative material. It's not just about, you know, creating boring and tedious copy, which is a lot of times how we think about it.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 5:58
Thank you. And I like where you're going. I'll play the devil's advocate a little bit, which is this. Two things, either, well, those tools cost, you know, a pretty penny. So why not do something like the Edward de Bono, where you get a random word from the dictionary and mix it with your ideas to generate something new is totally free? I know that. Or I will say the other argument would be we live in a chaotic world, we don't decide which ideas are wonderful. It's a marketplace or the Twitterverse or whatever, who decides that? So how can AI ever be as cool or useful or whatever, as checking what is trending right now. And when it comes to tweets, or when it comes to anything we want to write about and somehow create a variation on that, because it's proven to be working? You know what I mean?
Lance Cummings 6:56
Yeah, so yeah, no one necessarily say that AI replaces those techniques. But I was, the first example, I think, is an interesting one. So you're picking a random word and integrating it into your into your thought process, which actually reflects a lot of other conventional techniques that, you know, that actually I parallel with artificial intelligence. So, for example, thinking about Cyrillus activities, if you've ever heard of the Cyrillus, poets, they would basically do random things to come up with new ideas. So there's this exquisite corpse exercise where you write a line of poetry, a couple lines of poetry, you leave the last line visible, and then fold the paper over. So nobody knows what was written before that. And then you continue the poem. And then you keep folding it over. And then when you open it up, you've got this really interesting poem that nobody would have created. Without that tool. Well, I've actually been toying around with writing poetry with AI, which is definitely not how the, the these AI programs were necessarily pitched or built for. And, and what I find interesting is that the, the utterance and correction I would never have come up with just by doing any of those activities, and also really the being able to see many different choices networked together and the AI tool, while also, you know, editing for meeting, is it really an interesting process? That I think, even as AI tools get more developed, I think, they'll, they'll continue to be able to form us, I don't think I don't think AI is necessarily going to take over all these things, but but I think it's going to play an important role in how we come up with ideas. Now, as far as, you know, figuring out what's gonna fly on Twitter or medium or, you know, that kind of thing. Yeah, I don't know that AI is, at least from my experience so far, is necessarily going to help us generate that kind of that part of the ideas. Because I think, in many ways, I see the artificial intelligence as a collaboration between the writer and this, you know, large language model machine that we have, and, and it's not really going to know what's trending. There are some tools in there that's supposed to help you figure that out. But I guess I'm less concerned with you know, what's trending and more concerned about how can I tweak and and think about my ideas in a different in different ways that I can then go test out on Twitter, or test out on medium and see and see how that works. And, you know, I think that's one of the things that writers have to understand about artificial writing intelligence is that tools that you have to really think about The Rhetorical what we call the rhetorical situation. So who's the audience? What's the message? What are they going to get out of it? And the clearer you are about that, the more of that you can put into the AI, and the better results that you're going to get. So like, we still have to figure out what we're writing about why we're going to write it and who's going to care. The AI is not going to figure that out for us, in fact, that AI will work better if we can give it input that shows it, what those what those factors are. And so in a sense, I also see a I haven't used this in the classroom yet, but I probably will soon. But it does force students or first writers to think about that rhetorical situation, who's the audience? What's it for? And why is it important, and you know, in the classroom, this is often what's missing from student writing, that makes it either boring, not interesting, or just bad is that they don't have an idea who the audience is, you know, what the message is? And what's it for. And I think thinking about that relationship with AI forces us to think about those, those rhetorical relationships, and can actually be a learning tool to, to hone this ability. I was just reading a article about, you know, about, we're actually starting to think about this in the university, because we're thinking, well, we're gonna have the students using artificial intelligence tools to write essays pretty soon if they aren't already. Right. And so if you type into an artificial writing intelligence tool, you know, the question, or the example that I saw was comparing Freud with Rogers, right? What's the difference between these two psychologists? Well, AI does a pretty good job writing text for that. But when I look at that prompt, that is a terrible writing prompt for a student, you know, oh, here, student, compare these two psychologists. It's not interesting there, we're not giving the student why you would want to compare those two psychologists? Or who would even care. And so I actually would never give that prompt in the classroom. But I would try, we try to give students you know, why would you want to compare and pray that in a way that's interesting. And I think bringing artificial intelligence, writing tools into the into the teaching process can actually help students think about those rhetorical processes? So how do you get the AI to generate something that's rhetorically interesting, or fits into the context that you're thinking about?
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 12:47
Thank you. So if I understood it correctly, well, the whole writing process will stay the same as the best practices are, except instead of you waiting from for some divine inspiration, or using some clunky tools, or old ways of doing things, you use AI as a way to inject new ideas into your thought process. And I have, again to speak about Edward de Bono, how he explains creativity that our brains have these pathways of thinking that are difficult to break. So if we hear something or whatever, we will keep on thinking the same thoughts are going through the same pathways in the brain or same vein. So it's difficult to be creative. And that's why jumping randomly onto a word or adding some randomness into the process will somehow link parts of your brain that were not linked before. And therefore those pathways will expand and give you those new ideas, which is like to him, What is the process of creativity, it's basically, we are somehow machines that are well oiled for our usual ways of thinking. And if we want new thoughts, we have to jump randomly on other like pathways of our brain to link them to those user usual thoughts. And on our journeys within our brains, we will pass through an area of thought we didn't think about before, because it wasn't linked to what was happening. So can you share how can AI like you're exploring it concretely, let's say I want to write a tweet today. What will be the process? I know the audience? How can I use AI to move forward?
Lance Cummings 14:35
Yeah, so yeah, and I think I do think that artificial intelligence doesn't automatically generate creativity, like what you're saying, I think you've summed that the creativity part up quite well. It's how we use AI. So and, and I often say it's the right use of AI. I think you can use AI in a way that's going to To reinforce ways of thinking, it's not going to automatically generate new ideas. So the process, but if you jump into the process, and I think that's where, you know, the right use of AI comes in, is, you open up your AI writer, and there's a lot of different kinds of tools out there, they all look kind of different. But, you know, the main thing is, there will be some sort of place where you would put in context. So this could be, you know, you come up with a headline. And oftentimes, when I, when I do a headline, I want to try to make sure that it's obvious in the headline, who the audience is, what they're going to get out of it. And you know, what's in there, and which is generally good practice for writing headlines online anyway. And so if you get all that into the headline, and put that into the AI generator, it's going to give, you know, it's more likely to give you things that, that align with that audience and purpose. So that that's kind of one of the simpler ways to use AI. And, or if it's a tweet, that would be the other thing. You could sometimes you can put in, you can write a tweet, and you might think, Oh, well, that's really not really that interesting. Put it into AI, and I'll rewrite it four or five times, to see. And the tool that I have, and I think a lot of them have this now is you can change the creativity setting so you can have it rewrite it, but not really changed much of the ideas, or you can turn the creativity on. And you know, it starts guessing at new ideas. Each time it rewrites the tweet. So that would be kind of the simplest ways of doing that. I think one of the most interesting functions of AI right now also in thinking about, you know, the no code environment, right, is that you can actually start to, you know, one way to program your AI is to make sure that it's clear in your input, who the audience and, and context is. But now, in some, in some AI generators, you can create what's called frameworks. And this is simply finding, so say you want to write a lead in tweet that tells a story. So find four or five lead in tweets that tell story, maybe ones that you've written before, you can actually put it into what's called a framework, an app that I use, you could probably just put it in the editor in some of the other apps. And then, and then you have the AI. Right? Usually it says, right for me, something like that. And it'll take in all those things into account, as long as it can tell that each of those instances are different instances. So I've actually created poetry generator like this. So I've taken you know, five of my favorite Cyrillus poems, for example, and put that in the framework. And then you put an input. So it might be the key word for the day might be treasure, for example. And now it's going to write four or five poems that it thinks kind of matches Cyrillus poems using thinking about the word treasure, and, and results may vary. But then one of the things I like to do is, if I find one that really works, or I usually it's more like, I find a couple lines that really work, or even parts of lines, and then then I start patching together a poem out of that, and then I add it to the framework. And slowly the AI is kind of learning how to write a serverless serverless poem. So, so another thing people can do with some of these tools is actually start creating frameworks for things that you consistently want to write. And, and kind of train it just like you would intern, for example, train it to, to think through those genres and to and to make some guesses basically, of what a poem, you know what that the output might be? Is that concrete enough?
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 19:19
Thank you, I have still so many questions. It's, it's fascinating for me. So I'll ask two which are two different like criticisms that could be to this approach. One of them will be the hardcore, traditionalist writer who says, If writing or creativity or the inspiration doesn't come from the collective subconscious, or from my inner core, or from my poetry, demon or whatever they are, then it's not real at all. This is just a distraction and an artist uses his pain to come up with ideas and all that. What would be your answer to such people? And secondly, do you We believe that text and writing still has its place nowadays in a time where people are living, consuming 15 Second tiktoks, and short audios and all that. So to you, do you feel it's timeless, it will always have its place? Or it's something more archaic for the few. And that people nowadays are more about entertainment more about short, instant gratification consumption?
Lance Cummings 20:32
Yeah, so the first question is really interesting one and one live recently been exploring? And it really goes back to, you know, what are our beliefs about language? What are our beliefs about creativity? If we're thinking about poetry, for example, you know, you know, what do we believe about poetry? Does it come from, you know, the soul? My heart? Does it come from my brain? Does it is it just a bunch of language out there that I happen to mash together, there are all sorts of different what we would call rhetorical perspectives on poetry and, or even language, is the relationship between language and reality, right. And I suppose this is why I'm more open to artificial intelligence, I don't think you can separate, you know, our creativity from or, you know, what we're trying to communicate from the networked reality around us. So, you know, it doesn't come just from inside of our soul. You know, anything that we write, including poetry is influenced by things we've read, people we've talked to things going on in the room, while we're writing, perhaps, it's going to be influenced by the tools we use, poetry changed. When we started using word processors. Poetry changed when we started writing, right? So there's a, the relationship between technology and writing is CO constitutive is what we would say, they make each other up, you can't, we do have this idea in our culture, that writing is a thing that exists outside of technology, outside of sociology, society, you know, so good writing is just good writing, and we can abstract it, right. But writing can't be abstracted from technology, it can't be abstracted from, from, from society, culture, and things like that. And so AI comes along, and it's going to be a part of our the way we write whether we like it or not, it's important that we be be able to think about, well, what is its role in writing and to talk about it. So I always use the example, Socrates, you know, Socrates and Plato, they came around, just as writing was being invented, are being used more widespread. And Socrates was like, Ryan's gonna ruin everybody's memory. It's, it's, it's, uh, this technology is going to ruin society as we know it, because nobody is going to be able to remember anything. Well, as you know, that's that didn't happen, it changed the way we remember things. And one could argue the printing presses the same way. There were many people who were against the printing press, and how whites, how that would open up, you know, this idea, ideas of exchange and things like that web 2.0, same arguments, you know, texting, it's going to ruin how kids, right? Because everybody is going to be using emojis and stuff? Well, you know, it turns out, people are able to code switch between messaging and writing emails or papers. So so all the detrimental things that that are predicted, when a new type of technology comes along. Generally just doesn't come true. It's about not about the technology itself is not good or bad. It's how we use that technology. And so it all comes down to you know, how we see the relationship between our writing and AI and so and so that's, that that's how I would. And so in terms of poetry, and things like that, I would say we're already writing poems and relationship with technology and AI is just another another bit of that technology that's going to change what we can do with poetry, really. And that probably goes along with your second question as well. It's, you know, we say, you know, that the attention economy, you know, nobody can, you know, pay attention for more than two minutes. People don't like to read as much because you know, we've got tick tock and all that. Well, I would say yes, I would say writing and tech There's going to be around for much, much longer forever, maybe I don't know. But But, but it's, you know, it's not going to ruin the way that we write and communicate, it's going to change the way we write and communicate. And actually, what I'm seeing online, especially in the Creator economy, is that there's more writing going on than there was, you know, 10 years ago, online, people are writing their own content. And people are reading more, it's just that you, you pick and choose what you read now, right? You're not reading, everybody's not reading that big novel. Some people are, some people aren't. And, and also, the other thing that's changing is how we think about tech. So thinking about this no code podcast, for example, actually think that, you know, writing isn't already writing is not just about writing text, if I'm going to write an article, I have to think about what photographs go in there, how to format it, what the headings are going to look like, what font to use, do I put a video in there. So if I'm creating a website, I'm doing more than just text. So writing isn't just about writing text. It's about using different modes of meaning, audio, video, and things like that. But with this no code. stuff on the rise, I would say, being a writer also means constructing the spaces in which you write, or constructing the spaces in which you communicate. So no longer are we going to be just using Wizzy wigs to format, we are actually going to be starting to build those spaces, I think. And being a writer isn't just going to be about writing text, it's going to be about maybe creating notion templates, creating artificial writing frameworks. Because you know, who, you know, who would be the best at writing a, constructing a notion template or writing an AI framework, it's going to be good writers, those are going to be the ones that are going to be the best able to do that. Because creating a notion template requires you know, who your audience is, what what you're trying to do, and what they're going to get out of it and how you're going to deliver that to people. Same thing for a video, same thing for an AI framework. So, so yeah, I don't think writing text is gonna go away. But all those things that go into writing, you know, writing text applies across the board. And, you know, I suppose AI writing tools are just a small piece of that. But I think it's a very interesting one.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 27:45
Thank you. I love this very much. This conversation is magnificently modern, in many ways. Where is the intersection between technology, and something like rhetoric, which you spoke about as like 1000s of years old, as well as writing and then to ask you, because any person who becomes an expert actually uses a metaphor for what they're doing that allows them to perform at levels that novice is cannot. So what is writing for you? Is it self expression? Is it creating like a new landscape? Is it like a journey on a train Safari, I don't know how your mind thinks about it. But if you were to explain how your soul or your brain or your mind or whatever you want to call it approaches, writing in order for you to be comfortable with AI and technology, as well as loving poetry, and creating new ideas. How would you describe it metaphorically?
Lance Cummings 28:49
So the metaphor I've just recently use is, is within an interactive network or within ecology, so if, if I, I am always writing I guess, ecology would be a more visual metaphor, right? So the way that we're always writing within physical, psychological, social, technological, linguistic, cultural context, very complicated. We try to simplify writing into something that's, you know, just from the soul or whatever. But in the end, we're, we're, it's a complex act that's happening within a an ecology, that's always changing. And, and it's all about interaction. So I in a recent piece, I wrote like, if I'm a writer sitting in the woods, I have nothing to write with and nobody to read what I'm writing. Am I really a writer? Not really, right. You need, you need technology and you need an audience and you need a network. A interaction to develop that writing and also to get people out there to interact and read with your writing. So, you know, I post something on Twitter, you know, yeah, maybe that, I can say that, that comes from my own brain, I've thought about it. But there's all sorts of other things that have influenced that, you know, my education, things I've done in the past, the applications that I'm using the people I'm talking with, but then I put it out in the in into the Twitter and other people interact or with that, and I get new ideas, that becomes a new part of that ecology, a new part of that network. And it's constantly kind of building on itself. So just like ecology is in the real world, you know, it's always changing, it's never going to be the same. We can, we can make it better. In some ways, sometimes we make it worse in other ways. But it's always changing. But in order to, to really do good things. For the environment, for example, we have to think intentionally about what we're doing with that ecology, I'm gonna say that it's the same way with writing, if I want to be a really a good writer, if I want other people to interact with my writing, then I need to be cognizant of the different the different ecologies, the different things around, around that writing, and be intentional about what I'm doing with it. So that's kind of when we are approaching artificial intelligence, it's a it's going to be it's going to be a thing, it's already in our email programs. And so it's going to be a part of our ecology, whether we like it or not, so it's important that we think about, you know, what role that's going to play, you know, as creators, as students, as professors, you know, whoever we are, it's gonna be important to be intentional about what we do with AI in the future.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 31:56
I love that that reminds me of doing what are many argue that the theories is not about technology, it's about the ecology or even more, what I perceived from you is that you view human beings as a process that is constantly influenced, but by everything that is existing, that they're exposed to. And writing is just an expression of a state of being or a state of ecological influence in that time. And it's changing minute by minute interaction by interaction, through people evolving and understanding. And therefore, writing, in many ways could be like, a probe into the environment expressing the image you see right now. And the environment will tell you more, where you put colors here, you'll put new bushes there, and you'll see more of the map. In this way, Did I understand correctly?
Lance Cummings 32:52
Oh, yeah, that's, that's a great, great summary, I would say that, that's what digital writers are do. So one of the things I'm trying to do also, as I'm researching, you know, this crater economy, people writing, you know, if we've heard of ship 30, people writing essays, one essay a day, for 30 days, that's really what it's all about. It's not about like communicating that great idea that you finally came up with which, you know, I think about this in dissertations, too. We're like, oh, that dissertation has to be that life changing thing that changes the field? Well, no, not really, it's just a part of the process of you becoming a, you know, a, a expert in something. And that's a lot way a lot of creator, content creators are approaching digital writing now. It's, it's, you know, just write your idea for the day and see what and see what happens. And, and slowly, you know, you begin to develop this idea about develop this better sense of the ecology around that idea. I mean, I would say I'm doing that with artificial intelligence, honestly, is that I'm just tossing out ideas out there right now on Twitter and, and, and seeing what sticks and thinking out loud, basically. And becoming a part of that. environment that's talking about AI, I guess.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 34:16
Thank you. Yes, I'm very familiar with chips, 3430. And the way they perceive feedback on content, content creation and all that, but then I have to ask you about algorithms? And I know part of the answer is it's part of the ecology. But many people will think, actually, you're not getting feedback from real people somehow. But based on luck, and the algorithm and what it likes and what it doesn't like it might promote your content or demote it somehow. And therefore a great fantastic idea that can spread like wildfire could be taken over by some rumor or scandal or whatever it is, that is hot and that day, you're in that moment you post Did and therefore, it's in many ways, like the Chinese curse where they say, May you live in interesting times. Because if there are exciting things going on your achievements will not be noticed. So are your thoughts about algorithms? What do you think their effect on writing is?
Lance Cummings 35:18
Yeah, I think that's an excellent, yeah, I'm no expert in algorithms for sure. Yeah. And you're right, I would say it's a part of the ecology. You are right. You know, if you're not writing without at least some idea of an algorithm in mind, then, you know, then you're not being intentional about the psychology that you're writing in. But I would argue that algorithm is just part of what we would call the delivery of information, so, or the delivery of our writing, I think today, it's important to interact with people. So actually, we can influence the algorithm to by the different ways that we interact. So I don't think it's a matter of just posting it on Twitter and seeing what happens. It's, you know, finding other people and interacting with with their content. So if I'm writing about artificial intelligence, it's not just me about posting my idea, I want to go find other people writing about artificial intelligence interact with what they're saying. And I think probably the algorithm would reward that eventually, but, but also, you know, that in the end, that is how things become known or trend or whatever is, is through interaction. So we can't forget that there are humans and this digital network, not just algorithms. And that's probably a mistake that a lot of people make is that they just, you know, they posted on their blog expecting people to come or posted on Twitter. When really, it's about creating, if you're thinking about your ecology of writing, it's about creating that network of audiences. And so you have to actively create that. And at least that's how I'm interpreting what's going on in the crater economy, that you're you're creating your reader base through interaction. And sometimes you leverage the algorithm for that sometimes you're doing it despite the algorithm, I would say. And that that would be my response to that, to that issue.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 37:20
Thank you very much, Dr. Cummings. This was enriching, enlightening, a wonderful, wonderful experience, where I had some very interesting insights. I wish you a wonderful day and to keep going and if people want to learn from you to follow you to read your writing, or poetry, or anything you're up to, what are the best links for them to go what are you working on right now? And I'll make sure to write your Twitter in the description.
Lance Cummings 37:52
Yeah, so most of the especially the stuff on AI I've been posting on Twitter, which is at LA and CE ly IoT. I do write on media. I'm going to start writing developing more long form stuff about artificial intelligence on medium there's nothing there right now but and that's just at Lance Cummings on medium. The and then on LinkedIn people can that's on fire right now. So I've been posting on LinkedIn as well. So you can follow me there as well.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 38:26
Thank you, and I wish you a good day.
Lance Cummings 38:31
Thank you as it was a pleasure. It's fun talking about this
