Golden Interview - Kelly McNamara: On Impactful Writing

Kelly McNamara 0:00 It was in that moment that I thought, This is what I want to do. I find something in the world that concerns me that makes me feel fearful that I want people to know about that. I want to raise awareness about that. I want to feel like I have company that I've communicated with the people who are facing this threat to inspire other people to take note to stand up to commune and I felt just in that one comment that my mother made I thought, that's what I want to do. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 0:43 Once upon a time, there were 10s of 1000s of makers struggling every day they built for hours and hours but didn't ship and didn't earn enough income. One day, Vinod Caldwell's podcast and newsletter came to help them find a way because of this, makers became founders and earned the money they deserve. Because of this, founders can have growth, freedom and wealth. Until tomorrow, no code becomes the next big skill that changes the future of humanity. That's what I'm all about. Hello, my name is Abdulaziz and from an ethical hacker, to a European Ivy League business graduate to a hypnotherapist to a growth marketer. I've lost everything twice. And now I'm rebuilding my life one more time. 1% a day Dinoco dwells podcast and newsletter are for the makers and founders who have the proactivity perspective and persistence to go on this journey with me and get the answers about money, marketing and mindsets. So that makers become earners, earners become founders and founders get freedom and create wealth. And thank you all for the support. This podcast now is ranking so nicely. It's on Apple in the entrepreneurship category top 200 in San Francisco, top 60 In Germany, top 50 In the UK, top 30 in Sweden, top 25 and Italy, top 25 in India as well. So keep rating review and supporting my guest today is awesome. She is like the modern day wonder woman. Her name is Kelly McNamara from the University of Pennsylvania to the London School of Economics and Political Science to the University of Cambridge from teaching and research at the Harvard Business School to be in a fellow at the Human League to be in a case study writer at Ernst and Young Kelly is now the managing director at pivot food investment a nonprofit dedicated to initiating large scale divestment from factory farming and supporting investment in revolutionary plant based, cultivated and fermented food technology. She uses her skills as a writer and researcher every single day in her work to make a difference in the world. Kelly, how are you today? Kelly McNamara 3:08 I'm well thank you for that kind introduction. And I'm so happy to be here with you. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 3:13 I'm glad honored, almost flabbergasted. But really, really looking forward to today so as to give some context. Can you share a bit about your story that made you the Kelly of today or some anecdote that represents who you are? Kelly McNamara 3:34 Sure. And thank you for that question. So as you mentioned, I am a writer and a researcher. And my path to pivot and to this podcast today has been a winding one to say the least. But it began I would say when I was in fourth grade, so I was 10 years old. And I'd always wanted to be a writer, I'd always read a lot of books, I've read big books when I was in kindergarten walking home from the library with 400 page books that I had no business taking out. So I had some sense that I wanted to to write. And around this time this was let me think that was 1982 the threat of nuclear war seemed very present and real. Ronald Reagan was the US president at the time. And so there was a lot of discussion about Could this really happen and there were two films around this time one was called testament and other was called the day after. And they were both about nucular disasters, one being an accident, the other being an attack. And the movies were about what happened to the people who were left. And again, I'm pretty young. I'm perhaps too young to watch these films, but I saw them and I was just overwhelmed by the threat that this posed, not just to me and my family, but to children and their families all over the world. And I wrote a letter to Ronald Reagan asked him to please take note of this and to please not let this happen. And what could we do as citizens to help protect ourselves and mum, my teachers were very, very happy I'd written this letter and they sent it off to the White House. And that was quite kind of them. But they also invited me to read it out loud at a school assembly, which I did. And I can't tell you what the letter said, I wish I still had it. But my mother attended the assembly. And afterward, I heard her say to someone else, she didn't see I was there. And she said to someone else, describing me reading the letter, she said, You could hear a pin drop. And it was in that moment that I thought, This is what I want to do. I find something in the world that concerns me that makes me feel fearful that I want people to know about that. I want to raise awareness about that, I want to feel like I have company that I've communicated with the people who are facing this threat, to inspire other people to take note to stand up to commune. And I felt just in that one comment that my mother made, I thought, that's what I want to do. I want to write with impact, I want to get attention in order to spread awareness of certain issues. And I think at that moment, it made me feel less alone in the world, it was a bit of a bit of a selfish impulse. But I can honestly say that since that time, even though I've done so many other things and written about countless subjects, what if really wanted to do is to write with that kind of impact about something I cared a lot about. And I'm very happy to say that in the work I do at pivot, I've found something that I care that deeply about, that I want to write about in that way. And I hope that I can write well enough to make audiences be able to hear a pin drop. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 6:48 This is awesome. And I'm hearing three different things. One, one that you're the original American Greta thumb Berg. So you have been this earlier than her creating a lot of change and impact through your words and presentations even before such a thing for a young person was even imaginable. The second there is a great book I highly recommend by Loretta Graziano, Bruning or I don't know exactly how to say her last name is called a mammal, why your brain links status and happiness. And in it, she speaks about how look what the human being wants, what we love, is those delicious neuro chemicals that make us happy. And that stop our cortisol, which are serotonin, oxytocin. The thing is that these two are created when we are young. And we experience something that gets us validation. And therefore, our shaping moments in our youth determined for us what status we chase. So if someone was painting something as a kid, and they receive accolades, and they say, Oh, my God, you're so wonderful their brain things, okay, perfect. This gives me a higher status, which is serotonin, this gives me love. And therefore, I will get oxytocin from this app, it will be released. And every time you work on it, you get dopamine to encourage you and keep you motivated. So now that's like the neurochemical of why writing by through impact is so important. But what is even more important, it's like as a child, all children here power less, and therefore, it will they need other people whether to eat, to drink, to get taken care of to be safe. And therefore you found a way to enlist support from other people, which links to survival, and therefore, it's really wonderful. Anyway, let's continue with this wonderful discussion to ask you about writing. What does writing with impact mean to you? And I will ask it in a different way. When you write, do you feel or have a sense of that this is what your writing right now will have impact? Or is it more like a gamble, where you write, you hope that it will lead to pins dropping being heard, and after testing it and reality only then you know whether it was impactful or not? Well, thank Kelly McNamara 9:35 you, first of all, for that wonderful analysis. I think all of your points are spot on. And I will read Imam Well, thank you for that suggestion. And thank you also for the question. And, you know, trying to think puzzle through this for just a moment. So I suppose the short answer is that I intend to have impact and I do what I can In my writing to make sure that I deliver that impact. But we can never be sure. It's always a matter of testing. And writing in general is about thinking about what the audience how the audience will react, how they will respond it and, and doing your best to put something on the page that will elicit that response. But you can never be sure. Also, we all must, and whatever you're writing, it doesn't really matter. There's so much editing revision feedback from oneself once you have enough distance from a piece and from others that go into it. So I guess to answer your question is, it's a mix. On the one hand, I expect that when I'm writing or anticipate what I'm running will have impact otherwise, it's very difficult for me to begin. So I have to head into it thinking that this will work. On the other hand, I know it's going to have to be tested, and then I may be disappointed. So I do as much testing as possible along the way, I'm very big on and staged feedback. So not just myself, but giving it to beta readers around me people that I trust, testing the waters a little bit so that when I release something on a wider scale, I can have a little bit more assurance that I've hit the points that I've intended to. So I hope that answers your question. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 11:17 It is wonderful, actually. And it reminds me of Stephen King on writing where he had that comment when He submitted his first draft to an editor. And he said the best feedback that I got is a simple sentence on a small piece of paper, which said, second draft equal first draft minus 10%. And he thought, well, I will do that for every single draft, it should be tighter and better by and shorter and crisper by 10%. Now then to dive deeper into your mind and how you think you said you give to beta testers to get their feedback, which is wonderful. But when you write Do you imagine in your mind the audience and how they will react sentence by sentence? Or do you have a kind of Avatar like some marketers where they will put a photo of their typical audience member with some name and date and then like Andrew or Annie, they look at that person and write in conversation or format with that person expecting Okay, in this section, they probably wonder, this question and they will have this issue. So I will should talk about it? Or do you just empty your heart? And then based on the feedback, and you'll edit more and more? Kelly McNamara 12:38 That's a great question. I, and this was a relatively simple answer. I always write with my audience in mind, I'm constantly challenging myself to step out of my own brain and read what I've written as a, as someone else would, of course, this is difficult, which is why when you're editing or when I'm editing, when anyone is editing their own work, distance is critically important. And over time, I've come to learn how many days how many weeks? How many months? In some cases, do I need to be away from a piece to see it clearly? And the more that time is compressed, the more BETA readers I need? So the the answer is the short answer is again, I'm always thinking about my audience. First, of course, I know what I want to convey, but I need to imagine how it's going to come across. And one thing I do that's very important, and I'm not sure all writers do it is I read out loud. And when again, I have some measure of distance from something I've read, I read out loud, I record it and I listen to it back, even though it's my voice. And even though I've written the words still, it's different when I hear it in a different medium. And that always helps me refine says you need a pause here you need a piece of dialogue or when I'm writing nonfiction, and strictly nonfiction and I'm quoting you need a citation, you need a quote, you need a more high impact quote here, you hear things that you wouldn't normally hear if you weren't putting yourself in the audience's seat. So I can't emphasize enough audience first audience first audience first always, you know, adopting their perspective as much as possible, even though I'm, of course in my own brain. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 14:18 Wonderful. Actually, I remember there is The Work of Byron, who is a psychoanalyst from the UK and one of it is of the things he talks about is empathy. It's one of the hardest things that human beings could do, because people focus on one what is it for me or even in conversations? When I hope I'm not doing it? I don't think so. But it's like people don't even listen. They try to just show they try to make their point more than listen to the other person. While what I do is I think, okay to expand and extend whatever you're saying. I would add more than to ask you, you seem to be empowered. acted by those two movies about the nuclear war. And to the US seemed also to care so much about the impact you had on that audience when you are a little girl. And now when you write, you put your audience first and you have the audience in mind first, then I'll ask you two questions, which will be interesting. The first is, do you have a tendency in your life, to put other people's needs before yours, which is problematic, but a lot of people have such kindness that they will put other people's needs and then end up exhausted or losing in the process. And they're like, oh, I should be stronger. But I'm so kind and altruistic. So that's one thing is whether you put other people's needs before you in general? And second, are you an empath? That means when you look around and you see people, can you sense and feel the emotions that they're feeling when they're walking around? Or is this just a skill that through determination, desire, and ambition as well as like the goals and visions? You had? You developed? 1% at a time? Kelly McNamara 16:06 Wow, those are terrific questions. And I'm going to answer them very honestly. So beginning with the first, I would say I do put other people's needs ahead of mine. This is a tendency I've had since I was very young. I don't know where it comes from. Exactly. But I know that is that is, that is the case. And at times, it can be problematic. I'm in my fifth decade now. So I think, over time, I've become better at putting my needs ahead, particularly when I need my needs met so that I can do the best work I can. Now honestly, my work for animals has helped me prioritize my own needs. Because in order to do the best work, I can for them, I need self care, I need some space, any time I need to rest when I need to rest, I need some needs met that sometimes means I need to inconvenience other people. So but I've answered that question, honestly. And I would say for number one, it's it's a work in progress. And and I and I think I'm making some pretty good progress. On the second about being an empath I would say similar answer that when I since I was very, very young, I would say I have been able to discern other people's feelings and felt very sensitive to them. I am, you know, little, just a sideways glance, or the way someone might shift in their seat, or not necessarily what they would say or anything intend for me to see. But I would pick up on discomfort, sadness. And sometimes, of course, happiness, we can, I can tune into positive emotions if we want to label them as positive, easier to deal with emotions, perhaps. But I've always had a sense that I could, that I felt what it was going on with other people and that I had a responsibility to attend to those people. And that empathy extends to animals. It absolutely does, I see very little difference between having experienced the accent of being born human and the accent of being born any sort of non human animal, you know, all of us have arrived here against our will, without our say, and it is only happenstance that that I grew into the collection of cells that I did. And I might have been an animal under other circumstances, I might have been any other person under any circumstances. And so I, I feel like it is my natural tendency and also a moral responsibility to understand that empathy is an important skill to have an important impulse to act on. And I it drives my work. It always has, and it continues to, Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 18:54 this is really great. You're actually you have this capacity of being one with the universe as a Zen Buddhist, we'll call it and feeling because when they say, when you when a Zen monk looks at a tree is the tree because there is no separation between his essence and the essence of the tree, or of the goat, or of the animal, or even of the rise that he would eat. To him. It was like all a reflection and extension of who they are. And as an empath, you're way ahead on that journey than most people would be, although there is a book with a controversial title. But the argument is simple that look, when you care for your needs fully, you are in a stronger place to care for other people. So it's by David Seabury. And it's called The Art of selfishness. And it's, it's you know, for people who need that, it might be actually a really, really good read. Then we're not even talking about the writing phase. Let's evolve a bit more, and to ask you, we know at least now that storytelling is the most powerful kind of, of writing that they did even studies where they will show people 50 scientific studies about something. And it's like proven beyond the shadow of a doubt. And then one anecdote that contradicts is touches them emotionally. And they will believe that anecdote and story more than those scientific studies, human beings actually are not made to work through data, or statistics or anything like that. What humans, the brain structures reality, in terms of story, that's the structure, that the information makes sense to the brain. So in reality, I mean, I know you're listening to my other interview, where I speak about that patterns in life are not actually even real, or we don't even know they're real. So stories are not real in the sense that they're real. But they are a format, and that the brain puts chronological events in so that it's optimized for the use of the brain or, as one, an author. I don't want to mention it is a bit controversial, really. But he said something that stuck with me, he said, a story is life with the boring parts cut out. So that's what he defined the story out. And I thought, wow, that's actually clever, if you think about it, well, okay. First, why did you realize or focus on storytelling as a method of communication, rather than anything else? And how and why do you use it even in business communication, and in business work? Although most business people think that you should have that corporate speech of saying, we, we synthesize the different diversion, XYZ arena, all those words that are called normalizations, rather than conceptualizations, rather than focus specific human interest or focus specific story structures? Kelly McNamara 22:20 Again, fantastic question. And I like this quote about a story is life with the boring parts cut out? I think that is accurate. I think that stories speak to people as exactly what you said, they, people can digest them, there's a natural rhythm to them. Read the poetics, Aristotle's Poetics, this is not new. This is, you know, Aristotle was documenting something that had been around for, however long before he wrote it, he was just identifying a tendency among human beings to respond to stories told with a natural structure, a beginning, middle, and end ups and downs and conflicts and resolution. And so in all the years that I've spent writing and reading, I've internalized the natural rhythms of stories that work that speak to people that are easy to read, that are easy to digest, that makes sense. As a writer of any type, you don't want to put something in front of someone that they can't manage, or that seems foreign, or that doesn't match the what they expect, or how are the natural rhythms that will sort of make sense to them. And this applies in any sort of writing, it applies in business writing, I mean, the majority of the writing that I've done at Harvard Business School and for Ernst and Young that also in manuscripts that I've written for CEOs of companies, marketers, even people who are trying to convey ideas of their own is this again, simple beginning, middle, and respect the rhythms use details, use specific anecdotes. Great example at EY is that we write case studies for their immersion training. Why? Well, because the immersion training wasn't so helpful. When the consultants who are training new hires, were relying on what you described. conceptualizations big picture, not an out of context concepts, the new hires just weren't quite getting it. Well, we took real life UI experiences, and use them as a basis to write fictional case studies that were nonetheless replete with details, little nuances, little things that you wouldn't necessarily get out of aid a contextual conversation. And the students responded better. They understood operating models better, they understood the process of due diligence better what to look at when you look at a QE report because they had read a story about someone doing it It's and the conversations that he might have had with his colleague or response from a client, these little kind of bits of dialogue, this very minute. And very isolated instances of what it happens on engagement, X or Y really helps students get their hands around it. And I use the same ideas when I write for pivot, you know, we're writing about difficult, difficult things about factory farming, and we write about the riskiness of investments in factory farming, but we don't stay at the very high level of, well, you know, by 2050, things will look like this, the market will look like that. There will be this many animals and this many humans in this much water in this much land, those concepts are too big, they're too. They're too unwieldy. They don't, they don't bring the point home. So again, in my writing, even though I'm writing about big issues, and we're writing from a from a perspective of investments may not fare very well in this space. In that space, too. We rely on very specific instances, specific anecdotes, and I again, always try to abide the rhythms of natural storytelling, beginning middle and end highs, lows, conflict resolution, these sorts of things. So I hope I've answered your question. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 26:13 Oh, my God, I have like a million questions right now. Okay, okay. Can you take notes? Because this is so much good stuff. First, can you comment on the word, the rhythm because you use it more than once? So the reason of natural storytelling, I know you spoke about poetics and everything, but that word means something to you, that will be unique. So can you comment on that? Second, your writing then reminds me a lot of a book that I love by Eli Goldratt. It's called the goal, a process of ongoing improvement. And it's about the theory of constraint model of finding the bottleneck in factories, etc. Yet still, he used storytelling or book called high probability selling, which uses also storytelling, although I don't think it's as well done. But at least his story is not so bad. And I want to ask you, what is your opinion on the McKinsey mentor pyramid structure of writing? Because that's not storytelling is structuring in an a pyramid of threes? I don't know whether you're familiar with it or not. But I am very familiar with it. Maybe too much. The third in business writing to begin in media res or not? Because maybe it's an appropriate I don't know, even Aristotle, like you spoke about he recommends to begin in the middle of the action of the conflict. And finally, some people argue look, not finally, really okay, I had more question, which is, how do you handle executive summaries? Which executives are too busy to read all your work? And sometimes they'll read just the first page? What do you focus on there? And well, how do you hook Do you focus on hooking the reader in with like, some problem, or something that will catch their attention and keep them engaged. And maybe I'll ask another one, which is from Eugene Schwartz, but he's not from this. He says the first the purpose of each sentence is only one thing to make the reader read the next sentence. So he calls it this slip and slide model of writing, where you don't try to convince or to do anything with one sentence, you try to do everything with the whole writing. And so what he says look, the first the purpose of the first sentence, or even have the title, it's not even to convey the purpose, or the main topic or anything, the first, the purpose of that title is for them to read the first sentence, the first sentence purpose is to read the second until the end, the penultimate sentence is to for them to finish that last sentence, and then the whole thing will lead to them receiving a full logical or emotional argument that will change their minds, not one sentence, or one section, or one paragraph. The purpose of any one thing is for them to both receive some information, and get enough curiosity to read that next one. So it's a lot of stuff. But I hope you took notes and enjoy speak as much as you want. I will not stop you. I'll give you all the time you need because I consider your dear friend and an awesome person. And I'm honored and glad to listen to you. Kelly McNamara 29:28 Oh, well, again, thank you for these extremely thoughtful questions. And I hope that my answers will do them justice. And I did take notes. So we'll go one by one. So to speak to your question about rhythm. When I when I think about rhythm, of course you could think about it in terms of a three part structure. And there's a rule in screenwriting, Robert McKee wrote the book story about screenwriting and actually studied screenwriting as well. It goes to your point about hooks, but What should happen at 10 minutes, 30 minutes, 60 minutes, 90 minutes. And so there's this kind of abstract from a piece, even if it's a short piece, you could think about it in terms of the three part structure, beginning, middle, and end. And within that, the way that curves rise and fall, and so there's a certain natural rhythm to that. But another way to think about rhythm is, as someone is reading the there's a natural tendency to say, to expect a longer sentence, a shorter sentence, a sharper word, a softer word, an inclusion of dialogue, a quote, a not a paragraph break, a more than a paragraph break. So say, I know a definitive look, we're ending this section of a chapter not going on to the next chapter. But we're going to have a bigger break within the chapter. Those sorts of again, being sensitive as a reader, thinking about your audience. When do they what do they expect next? What would feel right? What would follow from this, and I'm going to jump to the to your point about Schwartz's comment about the purpose of any sentences to read the next sentence, because if it works here, that is such a good insight. That's absolutely right. It's your I write this way I write straight ahead. I know what my goal is, I know what the end game is, of course, I know what I'm writing about. But I think what did I just write what follows from that? What would naturally follow? What would the the reader be able to? What would they be able to digest after this? Again, you think about length, word choice, things that have nothing to do with the content itself, which has to do with the readability, and they keep going fine. And this paragraph here, because the reader it needs a break. And make sure that the reader is going to read the next paragraph because they're able to take a breath. And the next paragraph will make sense because the rhythm, the movement, the momentum is works for them. It's what they, it's what they expect. So it's not even just that the words need to lead to the next sentence is that the words need to flow into the next sentence. So I often when I write I listen to music for this reason. And usually I listen to one song on repeat, because it helps me get into this mindset of, okay, here's a bar, this isn't for time, or whatever it is, I used to play violin as a child. So I have a little bit of of a huge background in music, but enough to understand that how bars repeat how timing goes. Again, what makes sense to the to the reader is it as what would make sense to someone who is listening to a piece of music, something that's not too jarring that flows naturally. And that has when you use the word again, has the right rhythm, it's in the same time it's in has the right beat. So those are my comments about rhythm. And I hope they were helpful. And to your point about media res. You're absolutely right. I do I tend to when I write stories, when I write case studies for Iwan, in my work at Harvard Business School was very much the same thing. You start in the middle of the action. And often this is the hook to your question about hooks. And I'm thinking of a recent example, especially for, for students, I'm thinking of the cases I wrote recently for you why you definitely want to drop students in the middle of something that's happening, clients here, clients on the side, EY is on this side, we're putting the student in the action in the role of a consultant that they may be when they're dealing with a client, you just parachute them right into this conversation, and let them feel their way out. Give them enough details that they get their surroundings, they get their footing. And you sort of set the stage with this kind of, okay, sort of understand what's at stake. I'm a new hire here, I sort of understand what's going on. And then we pause, and we go all the way back. Okay, now, we'll give you the backstory to this moment in which we just put you, but it's absolutely a great tactic. It works. It gets readers engaged. And I always think about doing that. That your question about executive summaries. This is a great question for the work I'm doing right now at pivot because we're writing a book about the ESG and other material risks of investments in animal agriculture, pretty heavy sum, lots of data. Also, lots of anecdotes, lots of quotes, keeping the details sharp and crisp and gripping and the various chapters we write about one risk per chapter. But the executive summary for this book is what's really important. And I hope that if people don't read anything about risks associated with climate change, or antimicrobial resistance, or animal welfare activists or if they read none of the rest of the book, I hope they read the executive summary, which is meant to say, look, we've got a problem here. It's it's, it's it's a problem for people animals in the planet, and it's a problem for you. And in this book, we describe exactly why that's the case. We also give you an idea of how to fix it, how to position yourself to capitalize on opportunities. And we hope that you that it's useful to you, we also say this is a changing environment shifting it's, it's, it's constantly and it is true. This is changing every day. So we encourage you to stay stay in touch, keep, stay tuned, look for these resources. But the point is that it's very short, the book is going to be 30 to 40,000 words, the executive summaries may be 1500 to 2000. If that's if it's going to be that long. I'm going to take Stephen King's advice on writing as a great book, by the way, I'm going to take his advice and and chop down that draft, but the executive summary is going to be played a pivotal role in whether this book gets any attention. So executive summaries super important that your last question about McKinsey, I am not familiar with this with this mentor writing people very embarrassed. I don't I don't know anything about it. All this time at HBS and EY. And I don't know what this is. So perhaps you can tell me about that. And also let me know if I've, if I've done your questions, justice here. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 36:08 Awesome. Yes, you did. And you're not about the minus 10%. I do that I look how many words when I write something. And I say, okay, my target now is that number minus 10%. They have a book about it is the way that at McKinsey, every report, every writing, every single thing is written and the book, does it justice, it's absolutely clear is from 1987 by Barbara Minto. And it's called the pyramid principle. And she came up with it and it was adopted by McKinsey as she worked there, and now is the standard way, as well as a piece of thing that we advise that all people receive at McKinsey is this, whenever you say something, you say, I say this, because of three reasons. Even if you don't have a third reason, come up with three because it's a much more persuasive. So it's like, they tell you even if you have one reason, say for three reasons and come up on the spot, with three reasons. And the person will be like, Oh, my God, you have three reasons you must be so right. So one of the one of the teachings that they teach, you know, the people who begin working in McKinsey is, first you have to apply the pyramid principle when you write anything, especially when it comes to business work. And the book gives you all the details, as well. As you'll notice, if you ever met or speak with anyone from McKinsey, whenever they make a point, they will say for three reasons and know that maybe they had only one and then came up with the ref. And then they look so cool after doing it, but it's a trick that they teach them to come across as a lot more professional and reasoned well, about you starting with the hook. That's wonderful. We know this, and I'll repeat it just for people who might not be aware that the brain focuses on problems, because if we were only happy and focusing on the people who were only focused on the positive died, because, yeah, now they will, they will just get killed. And another thing, which is interesting that I read this study, that humans are distracted, because animals in general and mammals and creatures who were too focused will not perceive when a predator approaches and they died. And therefore, distraction is actually a survival mechanism that gives you the probability of actually getting a glimpse at something moving without you intending to do so and of looking at your blind spots randomly and therefore less likely to be attacked by a predator. And it's one of the reasons why humans are distracted. It's not just social media. It's actually a survival mechanism. Another thing in hypnosis is called Fractionation, which is if you keep repeating the same thing, the brain will shut off because the brain only notices contrast and change. And that's what you spoke about, about dispersing stories with quotes with sharp with, with sharp words with soft words. And always the variation is what keeps the internet the interest going. Okay. So now three things that I wish you to take notes on to answer. The definition of an expert is that they take something that looks like a huge, big topic that is complex and complicated. And see that signal within the noise of 5%. That makes all the difference. And they use that more than other people. And that's what makes them an expert. Experts actually do less than the average person, but they found those 5% most impactful things and they use them more than other people. And if someone doesn't do this, they will not be performing at the level as far as they could. So what do you in your mind are Are those things that you came up to and concluded are the 5% of writing that if you focus on, you'll know, that will be an impactful piece. That's one. The second, Mark Morgan Ford is still alive. He goes by the name Michael MASTERSON. But his real name is Mark Morgan Ford. He says, Look, when you write, have only 1.1, emotion, one conflict, one thing, and don't do more, because more will just dilute your message and get out of it or like Daniel Pink is speaks in his book To Sell Is Human, that look, because of the paradox of choice and the way the brain is made. Actually having more arguments or more points or more examples, destroys your persuasion abilities. The sweet spot is three. If you have three points, three arguments for a point or anything which relates to the mental pyramid principle, you will see that they use that rule of three all the time. Well, he speaks about Morgan, Mark ford says, Look, we're in distracted culture, don't even do three, do one and then next time, add another one. But don't really dilute your message, your audience should have one thing that they leave knowing. And that is better than trying to tell them everything. Because if you try to tell everything you end up telling nothing. Okay? That's the other one. The third is, this comes from Gary Vee. And from high probability selling and from everything that we live in a time of statistical fat tails. This is what Bill Bonner talks about, which is look, we are have 8 billion people. Don't try to convince people who are not convinced look for those people who are at the entail have already been open to what you want. And you will find that there is a bump, that there is a group that there is minimal, viable pocket of people, as Seth Godin will call it your people, your tribe. And if you it's a lot better use of your time to spend prospecting or looking for people who are your tribe, rather than try to change people as minds who are not open to it. And through grouping and finding your tribe, you will have power to change the whole system rather than trying individually to change people's minds. So to ask you, what kinds of people seem to respond best to your work at food, but pivot foot? Kelly McNamara 42:39 Okay, again, fantastic questions. Absolutely. Fantastic. I love them. So I've taken notes. Again, I hope my answers do them justice. So the 5% most important things about writing. So it is difficult to not difficult. I'm hoping that this doesn't come across as being too simplistic and answer, but it's an honest one. And when all standby. So first, the most important is is the details sticky as possible, small, powerful. illustrative, we were discussing earlier about show don't tell it's show with massive maximum possible power distill that anecdote, distill that example, make it as crisp and clean and sharp, and gripping as possible. But the details are everything don't glaze over our minds glaze over. They really do. I love all these points about distractibility. And it's true, we're we're drawn to the thing that looks a little different, that looks that captures our attention details can do that, but make sure they're as crisp as possible. The second is use the simplest possible language, more complicated words, or less powerful, just write it in the simplest way possible. And a writer I wrote now, of course, I can't remember who it was. I'm going to say grace Paley, but I could be wrong. So forgive me if I'm wrong about this. But someone asked her once, you know, how do you edit? And she said, she looks down and she says, looks at a word and said that words true. What's the next one? That words true? What's the next one? That word is true, right word by word. And we're talking about the sentences and the purposes of a sentence is to get me to read the next one. But even to the point of word, the point of a word is to get the person to read the next word and make sure that word is true. And what true means is the simplest, clearest expression of that you can possibly leverage, keep it simple. The third is trim the fat as again, we're going back to Stephen King's point. It's true, but a piece of writing should have no more than it needs and only what it needs. I recently watched an interview with Paul McCartney, and he's someone asked me you know, why do you think that the Beatles Songs worked so well. And he said, because they had exactly what they needed. So you think of a song like Blackbird, or yesterday, or let it be, they're simple, but they have what they need, they have the right amount of words, they're the right length, they have the right amount of instrumentation. They're simple, they're clear, they're powerful. The same thing with writing less is more, less is more less is more distill. It's still a distill, whether that takes time, it takes the writer time to distance him or herself from the piece and come back to it, or it takes BETA readers or whatever it takes, trim the fat, just do it, your writing will be better for it. So those, that's my answer to that one, we're going to the mark Morgan Ford, I believe and Daniel Pink's point about three or have three points or have one point, you know, the power of three is is, is ubiquitous. And it's accurate. Three appears everywhere. I like this idea about making one point. I think that's a good one, especially nowadays means writing has changed so much since I began, technology has made a difference. Blogging has made a difference, that proliferation of information on every device is made it different. So I'm going to agree with Mark Morgan Ford here and say, make one point make it well, especially because there's so many different ways to write things. Now. You know, at pivot, we're working on a book, but I would say that the chapters make discrete points, single points, we're not biting off more than we can chew. And that's because again, we're thinking of our audience, and the likelihood they'll even get to any of these chapters. But if they do, we want them to take away one thing, here is why risk X matters to you. If you read nothing else, if you pick it up, and you read this one chapter, you will take home one idea about one risk, and you might it might stick. So I think that that's a great point. And again, I'm going to read this, I'm going to read what he's written because I think that that's a good thing for me to keep in mind. Now for this most valuable pocket, find your tribe, what a fantastic thing. I just I love this idea. This like minimum viable pocket. I'm gonna keep this idea in my mind back pocket. I think it's I think that's a fair point. I think it's true. I think the idea that you could reach 8 billion people is is insane. I remember reading a pitch for one for a book and was the author lived in India. She had been born and raised there. The book was about India. And the point was, well, there's a billion people in India, her audience is a billion people strong. Was our Are you kidding? You know, there is there's absolutely no way that that's the case. And it's doesn't make any sense to think that way. It's certainly it makes sense to think about the audience that you can reach and then reach them effectively. And you're not really you know, best case scenario, that you have a wider impact because you managed to change that audience which managed to change other audiences. And at pivot, we certainly do this. When we speak to investors, we're speaking to certain types of investors, and we're talking to them about them. We are not talking to them about this is terrible, even though, you know, by many estimations, Factory Farming is heart horrifically cruel, abusive, not only to animals, but also to people on the planet industries. Lots of just, it's just, again, by many estimations, a terrible industry and a dangerous one. But we don't talk about that, per se, what we talk about is why it's a dangerous and terrible industry for those investors. And that is, that is our focus. And so we're we're making some traction and we're and the reason that we're focusing on that is that we've identified a blind spot there, and the audience is receptive because they say, Wow, I really did know that we're we are closing a knowledge gap and and people are receptive, and they're grateful for it. But again, the reason they're receptive and grateful for it is that it's about them. And I think that's important thing to keep in mind. I know we, any of us might want to write about any number of things, but at the end of the day, writing is about connection writing is about convincing someone else it's about engaging someone else, it's about someone else. So it's always important to keep that in mind to keep the focus there and again, love this notion of the of the minimum viable pocket I just, I'm taking this one with me mostly because it makes me feel better about what we're doing which is focusing on the folks that we can that we can connect with. So again, I hope my answers have have suited and Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 49:44 it's wonderful I'm calling Minimal Viable pocket he calls it pocket of people pop you know, then so much you know, this can go this discussion forever. One is you spoke about your style of writing it reminds me of the Winston Churchill quote, a good speech should be like a woman's skirt long enough to cover the subject but short enough to create interest. You're saying and about the writing the opposite. If people want to know what the wait to not write, which is opposite of details and crisp, it's called purple prose. That's a style where people use just big words all the time. And it's, it was popular, and then female romance novels in the 90s, where they just speak about, and then the emotions were flowing into it. Like they don't really speak about any details, they just speak in a way that is not concrete at all. So that's an example. And also, I was reading, rereading Maxell posts, you know, In Search of Lost Time, or Allah or chef don't tell you where he said, I mean, the His writing is all writing is. Someone wrote like that, today, nobody will read it ever. It's like, if he's going on so many tangents and then taking you for hours and hours in different directions without concluding anything, and you're like, what, what's happening, you are walking in this street, and suddenly, we're speaking about like, the life of your sister, then suddenly, you're speaking about like the family, neighbors family without any conclusion there is like no beginning, middle and end. It's all just beginning forever, and then some middles and ends. And, okay, a beautiful thing. You spoke about how you found a blind spot, and you're raising awareness, Daniel Pink in that same book, which is to sell is human. And in the masterclass that he did about that even more, he speaks about Look, today, problem solving is not at all valuable, it's so easy to find a solution to a problem, the real issue is that people don't understand the problem. So the value is in problem defining. And problem defining by definition, or according to what he is saying is that when people don't understand their problem, they have an assumption when you go and help them realize that the problem is actually totally different or not what they thought it was, and how it impacts them. That will make you truly add a value adding person as well as make them trust you. Because in psychology, and this is used a lot in marketing, if you can show people in a way that is persuasive, that you understand the true problem fully, they will assume that, you know, the solution is exactly like the doctor, that when you go to a doctor, and he does some tests on you, and he says okay, because of these tests, this is a problem, then you're like, Okay, what's the solution, doctor, because now you assume they know, the reality, they probably don't even know more than you do. But that's what people think if someone can define the problem, they assume they know the solution. If you are solving a problem that they came with, you're at the end of the chain, and you're achieved. provider, you will not have any true value there. We can go on forever. I want to know two things. One, when you look at other writers, what do you do that they seem to not do? So it's about a comparison thing, or contrast? Which is how the brain work? works. It works through contrast, and the second in 2020? What was the biggest eye opening lesson that you had? Because in developmental psychology, the model there is, look, every one of us is both right and wrong. Whatever we are level we are in, there is a higher level where we will look back and we think oh my god, that was so stupid. What was I thinking them and there is always a next level and the next level and the next level, it goes on forever. Which means that by definition, we're always learning will always get an eye opening moments, as well as we're always both wrong, in that we don't we're not the best version of ourselves there is always more or as Moshe Feldenkrais says and the elusive obvious is that there is no limit to improvement, there is no limit to improvement, and that you can always become better. And it's not possible for a human to attain perfection. And therefore, you can always get more out of what you have. What is your comment on these two things? What do writers do? You don't do that you actually do that you notice. And any lessons? Are you opening things in 2020 that you had? Kelly McNamara 54:46 Sure, again, fantastic questions. So to begin with the question about what do writers other writers do that I do not do? Or perhaps the opposite of that? I have to think about this and all We'll all talk about people who write in the, I'll say the animal rights space broadly conceived. It's not exactly the space that pivot is in. But we're adjacent to it in any event, if not also overlapping with it. So I think one thing that I do that other writers aren't doing yet, is or aren't doing at all, and perhaps won't do is that I'm, I'm working on targeting a very specific audience and framing the problems with respect to that audience. So a lot of writers in the AR space talk about, and I'm repeating myself, so I apologize, perhaps some degree, I'm repeating myself, they talk about the problems, but they don't talk about why it's a problem for X set of people, and why X set should be concerned, and what X set should do to ameliorate the problem. And it to date, it just there hasn't that hasn't appeared here, I think pivots in a unique position to do it. Because as I mentioned, we're talking to investors about why these investments are bad for them. But this is different from saying, animal cruelty is terrible. This food is bad for human health, it's bad for public health, it's bad, it's bad, it's bad. We know it's bad. But to just dump these kinds of problems in people's laps and not speak specifically to them. This is bad for you. Because of this, you should be concerned, we believe you should be concerned, we're concerned for you, we want you to be concerned for yourself, here's a solution to the point that you just mentioned, when to be an expert to be a value add resource is to understand a person's problem and to come to them with the solution. And that's what we're trying to do. And I think in broad terms, this is what has been missing from from the AR movement in general, similar to other discussions of climate change, obviously, it's a huge problem. But a lot of people feel helpless. What can I do, I can't stop using electricity, I can't stop driving my car, I can't stop living in the world that's dependent on fossil fuels, which it is. But to narrow it down to say, here's a problem, we think you should be concerned, we're concerned for you, here are some concrete things that you can do to better your situation. That's what I'm trying to do. It's not so much about writing, it's more about content. But I'm hoping that we make some some progress here. And that there's more discussions about these really big problems that focus on discrete sets of people and put solutions in front of them so that we can move forward. And I don't mean necessarily putting these solutions in front of governments, I mean, putting them in front of individuals who have the power to make certain changes, and we want to help them make those changes. So sorry, that wasn't really an answer about writing. But that's my answer to that to that number one question. And as for the 2020 eye opener, hey, I think I suppose I've known this for some time. I'm 48 years old now. So I've lived a long time. But still, I feel it was eye opening, which is that here we have a global pandemic. And obviously, it's causing us all a lot of grief. And obviously, it's causing loss of human life and deteriorating all kinds of economies. And it's going to put us in a very bad situation, just just the global economy and some pretty tough straits, I think we can all assume that's going to be the case. But I'm surprised that there's relatively little conversation about how did this happen? And how do we prevent it from happening again? There, it just strikes me and I suppose it's because I my work concerns animal agriculture, and this emerged from animal agriculture as much as people don't, I don't know surely don't want to say it. It's just that conversation isn't happening. It's happening to some degree, and again, in the circles that I've mentioned, but in a wider in a wider sense, it really isn't. And it has me puzzled to be honest disease. Why wouldn't you want to talk about how this happened? In order to keep it from happening again? Where are these? Why are these conversations not occurring? Why is it news not about this, and all the COVID it was all about the Coppa discussions. I'm in New York, for example. So from beginning we were listening to Cuomo just talking about what to do with hospitals, what to do with masks what to do with gloves, and never pausing, saying, you know, if we're really this is really tough, it all kinds of loss everywhere. Why don't we pause and take a half an hour of the six hour segment and talk about how this happened, and how we can keep it from happening again. It's just it has struck me. And there's, I suppose similarly, with the other political movements that have been occurring. Again, I'm in the US, and we think about Trump not a whole lot of conversation about how did this happen that this person was in office and he had this kind of power and he put us in this much danger. The Black Lives Matter movement has, I would say in this case, has inspired some discussion about okay, we need to grapple with our history. There is some conversation about that again, half thing in the US? How did this happen? How did racism have? Let's let's take a closer look at this, we have to come to grips with the fact that we were a slaveholding. Country we have to do this, but was, and I'm glad for that. I think it's extremely important. But with some other major global issues, I just don't see that kind of reflection happening. And and frankly, I'm concerned. So I don't know if it's so much eye opening as concerning. And I hope it's not too much of a downer. But that is my honest commentary about 2020. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 1:00:30 No, it's fascinating. Thank you so much. I mean, not only during this time, but every time we speak, I'm honored. And it's always such a fascinating we have such chemistry when we speak and about repeating yourself, you should not make excuses for this. Donald min Miller defines leadership as an exercise in memorization, where every single day the leader has to wake up and remind people of what is important, and where we're all going. And therefore, he speaks about you should, the fact that you should remind people and repeat word by word, at least 20 to 30 times. One thing before people will get it or as he speaks about in his business, when he wanted to pivot to another business. He needed to repeat it every day for six months, until people got it finally, so he that's how he came to the conclusion that look, the highest value thing that you should do, as a leader is define the vision, define the path, and then every single day, be like that rooster that wakes people up to the No, I'm Adam, this metaphor, he didn't use the rooster. But I like that be the morning, just wake people up to the fact that look, this is this day is just one more stretch on that path towards the vision where we intend to go. So wake up and get to work in that specific place. And don't be an inbox manager, or, like Martin said, something like that. And well, this was this can go on forever. I would like you to finish with two things. One, can you give real details to people who are not involved in the animal rights space to understand exactly what do you do? Not just you personally, but what does your company do exactly? What goals do you have? As well as if they want to connect with you or learn more about the work that you do? Where can they go? Maybe they can keep in touch to know about the book that's coming out or anything like that. Kelly McNamara 1:02:48 Great. Thank you very much. So to answer your first question about what pivot food investment does, we are attempting at the highest level to move money institutional money out of traditional industrialized animal agriculture and into plant based and alternative protein technologies. Granted, the amount of investment in traditional industrialized animal agriculture is not calculable. According to the experts I've consulted but estimated at around $3 trillion. This is a lot of money. In the plant based alternative protein space, we're at a few billion, it's it's just you can't just move it that easily. But there is a way in which we can move some of it out. Some of it will just out altogether, some of it will go toward investments in all proteins. And when I say all proteins, I'm encompassing all of them cultivated, fermented plant based, some of it will go there. And the opportunities on the I'll just call it the new protein side are going to increase exponentially within the next several years. There's already some big bets coming. So we're hoping that we can have more of a balance. But in the meantime, pivot is again, raising awareness about the dangers of investments in animal industrialized animal agriculture and encouraging investors and stakeholders to move their money out of this industry and towards sustainable alternatives. And to really appreciate just what a huge opportunity, the sustainable food industry is, you know, human population, obviously, still growing 10 billion people by 2050. We have to find a way to feed them sustainably. And we will. And so we're educating people on here's a big opportunity. Get out of the side, the investments are not going to fare well get into this, the investments are going to fare amazingly well. So that's at the highest level. If you go to pivot food.org You'll see some more detail about the the research that we've done, why these investments are risky, the new trends that are coming along that with regard to regulation with that Mostly concerns climate change, but also environmental degradation more, more generally, the threats to the industry, not just the abuses the I'll call them abuses. That's my term abuses the industry inflicts on people animals on the planet, but also the dangers that they're running because they're not going to be able to externalize their, their let me say their negative impacts endlessly. So they're coming under fire. So again, pivot through.org, to learn more about the research that we're doing there, you can get in touch with me Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 1:05:31 one second, just to make sure when you use the word externalize, because there are two definitions to that is either what in French is called escaping forward, which means they're throwing the negative consequences to the future, just saying, okay, but we don't have to deal with that today, or let other people deal with it. That's one definition. Or there is in another definition in a law and Political Science of calling negative externalities, which means it's in the concept of unintended consequences of a law or of a reform, that you had a positive intention, but it led indirectly to something negative. That was unexpected. So when you use that word, I just want to make sure it's well defined? Kelly McNamara 1:06:21 Sure. Thank you for that question. So in this context, we talk about negative externalities, we mean in negative impacts on people, animals in the environment that companies do not have to pay for that don't show up on their balance sheets. So for example, when the clean water regulations are rolled back in, I'm speaking about the US right now. And industrialized animal agriculture operations are allowed to pour manure directly into rivers and streams untreated, well, this is a public health problem. This is an environmental problem. This is people getting sick, and to the rest of and having all of the associated negative experiences that go along with chronic illness and death. And none of this again, appears in the company's balance sheets. So though, that's the kind of externality I'm talking about, it's not intentional, so much as policy has not caught up to say, you can't pour poison, newer into rivers, lakes and streams. You can't spray ammonia randomly over neighborhoods and in cars, Blue Baby Syndrome, and cancer and asthma. You unfortunately for for animals, this is extreme suffering inflicted on them in the name of keeping costs very low. We would like to say that people should say, Look, you can't treat animals that badly, you're going to have to take a hit your your relatively slim profit margin needs to get a little bit slimmer because animals need to be anesthetized before they're mutilated or killed. So when we talk about again, we talk about the externalities. And I'm not even getting to climate change, which is a huge one, there is some talk of carbon regulation around industrialized animal agriculture, particularly around cattle. They're a leading producer of methane, very destabilizing, greenhouse gas. Most people don't know that animal agriculture is the second leading emitter of greenhouse gases globally. So after fossil fuels, industrialized animal agriculture should be next on the list. They're not there yet, again, their emissions not showing up on their balance sheets. So that's what I mean about externalities. There's a book called Mita nomics. The author's name escapes me at the moment. But it goes into detail about the real cost of a McDonald's cheeseburger, for example, consumer may pay $3, but its actual cost is more like 16. And that, that difference between 16 and three is what taxpayers are paying, you know, obviously, what animals are paying for in terms of their pain, what people are paying for in terms of illness, and what the planet is paying for in terms of its degradation. So that's what I mean, when I talk about externalities. I hope that cleared it up. Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 1:09:00 Thank you so much, I'll make sure to write the website in the description. It was a pleasure, and it was enchanting, interesting and enjoyable. So I thank you for your time. And I hope and I wish and I know, this will be the year for the work that you're doing. Not only you but everyone involved and that the animal rights and food reform and the investments and the whole sector or domain or part of the economy that is mistreating animals, I was gonna say it in French miles per day because it's not me it's mild to everything but mistreating animals, that that will end and it will be both for the humans, as well as the animals, a place where everyone is treated fairly well, humanely. Thank you for your time and have a great, great day. Kelly McNamara 1:10:00 Thank you so much for having me. It has been such a pleasure. What a wonderful podcast Do you have? You're a fantastic host I have just thoroughly enjoyed myself. Thank you again