Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 0:15
Once upon a time, there were 10s of 1000s of makers struggling every day they build for hours and hours. But they didn't chip and didn't earn enough income. One day, the no Caldwells podcast came to help them find a way. Because of this, these makers became founders and live the life they deserve. Because of that, founders live lives of abundance, freedom, and creativity. That's what I'm really all about. Hello, my name is Aziz and from being a poor boy born to a single mother in North Africa, with no opportunities, just sheer hard work, to failing multiple startups, yet learning a whole lot to barely escaping alive the war in Ukraine, even living as an illegal immigrant. I've lost everything twice. And now, I'm rebuilding my life. One more time. 1% a day sharing the wisdom of luminaries of interviewed on this podcast from Google executives to Amazon, Microsoft, Forbes, Technology Council, Harvard, Goldman Sachs, Financial Times, and even a priest from the Vatican church. Everyone is welcome, here. So let's begin. My guest today is Camille Franceschi. Camille is the co founder of Zune bought and no CO chatbot builder to automate in minutes your recurring interactions June bot is accelerated by the Zendesk Acceleration Program and the famous incubator, I should say. And it is based at station F in Paris, which is the world's biggest startup campus. Camille, how are you today?
Camille Franceschi 2:14
I'm fine. Thanks, you. And thanks for having me.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 2:17
It's my privilege. It's my honor. And to explore your experience nowadays, and who you are as a person, is there something on your mind that you're trying to change in your life, or in your business, or a problem you're trying to solve? Or anything that is demanding your attention again, and again, and again,
Camille Franceschi 2:39
I can say, what I'm working on two days to be able to, to work more efficiently, to save time to have my weekends. It's something very important, and I feel that I cannot anymore always work seven days per week. And yeah, when you when you know, you have five days per week, you can work better. And that's my goal today.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 3:10
I love this topic. I have so many questions about it. But I'll ask with one thing, when we look at work, it never ends, you know, the last day of our lives, we can be as busy as the busiest day ever. And therefore, how do you make yourself stop if you always can see more opportunities to do more to improve things to find new opportunities for marketing for growth, and all that,
Camille Franceschi 3:41
you know, when your To Do lists is to is for one year, at least, you know, you can't do that in one day. And what what I do, what we do with my co founder is that we have a to do list. And we write every day what we will do each day and each week. So we set up a goal per week and per day, and we try to achieve this. And we don't add more task, more tasks. And that's it.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 4:17
Thank you. And I'll ask you another question, which is very important. Every day there are more tools that are supposed to save us time to automate our lives to help us grow, to improve our marketing and things like that. But it seems every day there are more things we have to do we have to be more busy than ever. So do you think it's the problem of the whole situation and the tools that we have too many tools and we need too much time to understand them? Or what's the problem? If we can, we should have leverage and possibility to work less because we have so many Norco tools and things like that, why do people end up working maximum, even on weekend?
Camille Franceschi 5:05
I think as a, as a founder, as a CEO of a company that the competition makes you work more. You have to compete with people. And so people are the same tool in their hands. So, yes, anyways, even if you fight with a gun or a knife, you have to put the same energy.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 5:31
Thank you. This is so interesting. I spoke to an AI and machine learning expert about singularity, which is supposed to be the moment that in theory, AI will be smarter than humans and everything. And he said, I don't believe AI will become smarter than human beings. But we're moving towards such a competitive situation that every minute you need to invent something new to reinvent yourself to be constantly innovative second by second, which makes it like a world where there is no stability. Do you think we're moving towards that? Is this part of what you shared right now? And if so, how can someone even take the weekend During such times in two days, the whole market can change so much, I
Camille Franceschi 6:24
think, to be better than the others. You need to avoid to make mistakes. Because my mistakes, of course, make you learn stuff. But if you talk to the right person who did the mistake before, you have a 10 minutes conversation, you understood the point and then you didn't spend three months doing the mistake, you know, so avoiding doing mistake, make you competitive.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 6:57
Thank you. Why you said that if people work five days a week, they will be better. How can people become more competitive by taking the weekend off and working less?
Camille Franceschi 7:11
Because we are humans? I know some people can, can work here 24 hours, like 20 hours per day seven, seven days per week, but it's not the case for everybody. And I know, I think it's it's about how people feel. For me, having at least one day completely off is important for me. But I know other co founders that told me that you know, so yeah, it really depends on the personality, and the need. And I know if I work all the time, all the time, I won't be productive because I missed something in my life.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 8:00
Thank you. You spoke about people that can work 20 hours a day? Do they really exist? Or is it a myth? Like Santa Claus? Papa, no, however I've ever met entrepreneurs say to each other, but nobody really can work for a long time and such hours,
Camille Franceschi 8:20
maybe I knew some people who did it working very hard for some period. But not regularly. But I know some people that can really work hard and don't need two days off. So it's not a myth. Crazy people exist, or other worker people. Sorry,
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 8:44
no, I will ask you even more because I spoke to such people. And what pushes them to work so hard is that they feel if they're not working, there is an emptiness in their feelings and in their hearts. And so they're running away from pain, rather than doing the work because they love the work so much. And therefore, in many ways, it's people who are trying to distract themselves from other pain of life by working all the time, because otherwise it will be not a happy moment. If they took a day off. Do you think that could be the case? Or it's not like that? I heard
Camille Franceschi 9:26
stories about people like that. Definitely, they need to have a job that take us all the time possible. Because if they are not focused anymore on work, they're still thinking and they are depressed. So yes, some people are like that. Thank you.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 9:45
And you're building a no code tool. I understand the value and the importance of all of that. At the same time. A lot of people come to the no code space to build out abs and businesses, but they're doing it as a hobby or as a way so that they don't have to be an employee just to make some money so that they don't have need a salary from a business or a company, they can live on their own lifestyle and income, do you think it's possible to do that easily, or the business is so competitive that you need to build a real company with a real team, in order to have a chance to succeed at all,
Camille Franceschi 10:32
I think that depends on the market, where you are, if you're on a niche that nobody found, you can be okay, working a bit like that for a few years, maybe. You know, if you're really on a business that nobody has interest for, but if you are targeting a business very competitive, you it will be complicated to to work only a few hours per day and have a great salary. If if you have competitors, that will that are everywhere, you know, it will be in competition has competition,
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 11:13
thank you, then I will challenge something because there is this idea that if you find a niche where there are no competitors, it's because there is no money in that niche. And that competition means there is money and profit to be made. So is it realistic to think that someone can find a niche that is an discovered before? Or are they finding something that people tried before and found that it's not a successful idea in this way?
Camille Franceschi 11:48
You know, maybe for big companies working on a certain type of niche is not interesting, like it will take more time that they want for this specific niche, so they won't just not working on it. And then you have space for that. Or maybe it's very unsexy, you know, you have, you have businesses that really are not very interesting at all, but you can make money on it. And maybe if you find something like that you will be safe for a long time.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 12:21
Thank you. And then I'll ask you about June bought in this world, there are many, many, many companies that are offering chatbots. So why did you choose to enter a market where there are already many competitors? And what exactly did you think will be your unique way that will allow you to be competitive, not only working harder than everybody else?
Camille Franceschi 12:48
Good question. The thing is that we started at the beginning to work on HR issues, meaning we, we saw that some talent acquisition managers were spending lots of time trying to call people especially in service industry to to qualify them. And, and they needed to recruit very fast and had tone of resumes, which, which doesn't mean anything in service industry to help them so at the beginning, the Chatbot was not even a chatbot, but an animated form to help HR to qualify candidates, you know, it's just that in the end, we found that it could be used for a larger market. So we expanded it. And yes, we have a lot of competitors. But what makes us different today is that chatbot builder is very intuitive. It's a drag and drop system. Very visual, everybody understands how it works easily. And that's not the case with every chatbot builder today. And we choose to stay focused on chatbot for websites. And we have we would like to improve the customization, and for listing videos, video recordings, stuff like that to allow people to go further into qualification rather than trying to be an omniscient chatbot builder.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 14:33
Thank you, and from what you learned about entrepreneurship and about building a business, if you would advise yourself or any new business creator about what to look for in the idea that they will choose, what would you say like what do you tell them? Find the market that nobody's in avoid competition or you'll tell them? Yes, go for competition. When but try to be smarter. Or What other advice would you give to yourself? If now, let's say you sold, you know, a unicorn called Joon bot, and you had to start, again, a new business from zero? What advice or things have you learned that you can share?
Camille Franceschi 15:18
I would say, when you enter into into a business, and there is no competition, it's weird. Today, it means maybe there is no business to do. So competition is okay. But the thing is that what what's, what's the business you are working on? What's the competition, because if you compete in a market, where, you know, the only way to success is to do Google ads, and you don't have any money, it will not work, you know, you have to know, regarding the challenge, what does it imply? What it implies, regarding money, and, of course, employees, you need to succeed. So because you know, people want to sync bootstrap company can be done can be a good way to succeed, but it depends really on the business. So you can't put strap anything, sometimes you definitely need money from the beginning, because your business is too is huge, you know? So yes, the advice is really to think about what you are trying to achieve. Is it big? And if yes, are you ready to fundraising and hire the number of people you need?
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 16:49
Thank you. And when it comes to hiring, a lot of people don't have the skills, the social skills, the ability to lead, to manage and all that. So, do you think? Or would you say to some founders, if you don't have that ability to be good with people than avoided any way you hire a manager or just don't grow? Or do you think anybody can learn to be a great manager and leader and to hire? Well,
Camille Franceschi 17:19
I think as a founder, you need to know how to do it, because it's part of your job at some point. So if you can't manage well, you need to learn how to do it properly. Because if you need people to to make your company grow, you have to manage them properly. So it's definitely not a necessity.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 17:43
Thank you. I'll ask you another more philosophical question about entrepreneurship and being a founder, do you believe founders should act as if their business is already successful, so that they can make decisions without any stress? And pretend that everything is okay, so they can think long term? Or should they do what most founders do, which is be in survival mode, where they're just making reactive decisions, trying to find the next amount of money so that they don't go bankrupt and don't lose everything? But often that makes them not think the good decisions for the long term, but instead to do what is short term to make some money?
Camille Franceschi 18:27
Can you use us very interesting questions. The thing is that, I think people should do both quick wins, and quick wins. And, you know, if you want to, to to have your business growing, like naturally, without you working manually on some stuff, to get more clients, I mean, the power of word of mouth, you need to build something long term. And in the meantime, depending on your financing, maybe you can't afford to live a long time without money. So you need to make the right addition and to, to be able to, to build your company with with with this, how do you say that? The Singularity meaning that you have to play on both sides. If you don't have money to to take 100% of your time building long term growth, then you both have to do the like the long term work and the quick wins. And the question is like, will you be able to do that? By yourself? on it.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 20:00
Thank you. And as a personality for the entrepreneur, who would you tell? Or who do you think should not even, like, consider seriously being an entrepreneur, maybe as a hobby, and they should have a job forever, because they wouldn't be able to handle entrepreneurship, and what characteristics and a person will make them the right person to be an entrepreneur? Meaning, do you believe anybody can and should try to be an entrepreneur, or for some people, it's a really bad choice. And they should focus on being having a good career as an employee forever.
Camille Franceschi 20:40
You have to, to have a specific personality to be an entrepreneur. In fact, you don't have to be the smartest people. You don't be to be to be the smartest guy ever, but you need to be a hard worker, resilient guy, and you need to have a lot of energy, a lot of energy not to give up because you call the 100 people and nobody buys your product, you know, you need to say, Okay, I will do it, I will do it one 7%. And, and, yes, at five o'clock in the afternoon, it's not done. You need to, to trust yourself, you need to, to be very, to say that you need to you need to believe in yourself and you need to, to believe in your company, one certain person every day, and do either doing the cheat sheet job, also, everyday without like, saying, I would do it tomorrow, because that's working, the company is not 100% Fun, sometimes you are tired, and you still need to do the manual stuff, which are not very interesting to work on. But that's how you can get clients. And for those people who are not like that, I don't think it's a good idea for them to start a company because there will be demotivated very quickly, and not able to walk out to gain clients.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 22:32
Thank you. And I'll ask you then another thing. A lot of people are sold the entrepreneur dream as something where for 123 years, maybe you work hard, and then you have employees and managers and you just relax and the money comes in easily or your company gets acquired and you become a millionaire and you have an easy life. Do you believe this is true? Or as an entrepreneur, you will always have to work very, very hard, as long as you're in business because like you said, competition will always be there waiting for you. So you have to constantly innovate. And that entrepreneurship never becomes passive income. It's always active, and very, very creative and hard.
Camille Franceschi 23:21
Yeah, I think it's not always active income. It can be very true for some cases and less true from for others. But I don't think you can say okay, I reach this amount of MRR are right now I can stop working dot I don't need to innovate and don't need to do anything. Right now. I don't think that's possible. You still have to work.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 23:50
Thank you. Would you ever become a serial entrepreneur where after June bought, you'll want to do the experience again of starting from the beginning and creating something new, or it's enough to have experienced this one time and the old tries to keep growing when things become stable rather than start again from zero.
Camille Franceschi 24:16
I think I really like the time when you start a company and you start from scratch and you are building everything. It's very funny. The thing is that even if you stay on the same company, your job is evolving as a funder for example, as a CEO, you you start doing something different. So you are always experimenting and learning new stuff. So it's it's great. I don't know what I will do tomorrow. To be honest, I am just focused right now and I don't think about what what I will do in 10 years. You know,
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 24:57
thank you. You spoke about Meeting with and having conversations with people who have made the same mistakes so that you learn from them. And you know what to do at the same time you're creating something new, the market is new, the need is somehow different than you. So how do you prioritize to know what is the next correct action because you don't have unlimited resources to do everything. Or you just do your best thinking, and you try and you're not sure what will happen, but you're taking action anyway.
Camille Franceschi 25:35
I take advice from people, but as you said, the business is different. Sometimes I did mistake, following advice, which are not appropriate for our company. And sometimes I just follow the right advice. The thing is that you people say try, try, try, but don't try everything. Just try to think take time to think and try the right things for you. Even if people advise you, maybe you can follow the wrong paths.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 26:08
Thank you, Kimmy. And can you speak about Zune, but for people who don't know it, who want to use it to test it? What is it? What's different about it? What's the website? How can they learn more? And I'll make sure to write the information in the description of this episode.
Camille Franceschi 26:28
So yes, June but is no code and intuitive chatbot builder to easily design and build automated conversations. So anyone can build in stereo chatbot in a few minutes, and they can convert and qualify leads, you can capture data, and personalize client journeys. The website is easy to remember to embed.com you can sign up and try the platform for free during Fante 14 days. So and we also have a free plan. So you can really enjoy building a chatbot without any involvement. And And yes, you wanted to know my where are we people can reach me? That was the question they can. If some people have questions, you can definitely contact me I would be I would be happy to help you. And you can reach me on LinkedIn or Twitter.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 27:31
Thank you Kami. This was my privilege, my honor, a really interesting conversation and I wish you to keep going to be successful and have a good day.
Camille Franceschi 27:43
Thank you as always, bye bye