Episode Transcript
Once upon a time, there were tens of thousands of makers struggling.
Every day they built for hours and hours but didn't ship and didn't earn enough income.
One day, the No Code Wealth podcast came to help them find the way.
Because of this, makers became founders and lived the lives they deserve.
Because of that, founders lived lives of abundance, freedom, and creativity.
That's what I'm really all about.
Hello, my name is Aziz and from being a poor boy born to a single mother in North Africa
with no opportunities, just sheer hard work, to failing multiple startups and learning
a whole lot, to barely escaping alive the war in Ukraine, even living as an illegal
immigrant, I've lost everything twice.
And now I'm rebuilding my life one more time, 1% a day, sharing the wisdom of luminaries
I've interviewed on this podcast from Google executives, Goldman Sachs, the Financial Times,
Forbes Technology Council, World Economic Forum, the United Nations, Harvard University
and even a priest from the Vatican Church.
Everyone is welcome here.
So let's begin.
My guest today is Lucie Barat.
Lucie is the art director and co-founder at Logologie, helping you get a designer quality
logo for your startup in five minutes.
Lucie specializes in visual storytelling, the art of conveying emotion through symbols.
She has refined her user centric design process by helping startups for more than 15 years
and teaching in universities for 10.
Lucie, how are you today?
I'm very good.
Thank you, Azi.
Thank you for having me.
I'm very happy to be here with you to talk about whatever you want to talk about symbolism
and logo or narrative.
It's really a pleasure to be here.
It's my honor and privilege and lucky day to spend this time with you.
I'm really happy and curious about what we will discuss, everything that we could speak
about.
And I'll begin with this.
It's nowadays we live in a time where a lot of business people face a lot of difficulties.
There is recession, there is difficulty finding clients, there is AI who can come take people's
jobs and functions, and often what keeps people going and gives them courage in difficult
times is basically narrative, the belief that they're part of something big, that they have
some kind of unfolding destiny, and they have a goal that in the end they will win against
the obstacles and the enemies, et cetera.
So can you speak about this?
Do you feel a lot of entrepreneurs or new founders or people have such a narrative?
Is it missing?
Why is it missing?
What's the situation in your opinion?
I'm not sure it is missing.
I was thinking as you were speaking of it, it's a very interesting point of view and
question because I don't think it's missing, but I think we don't have enough narratives.
The narratives are too much the same.
Too many founders that I've met this last years have the same, I would say the same
dreams.
Like if you were just looking at the dream of someone else and thinking, oh, this might
be my dream too, or maybe I should dream this, I should be this kind of person.
And just, for example, you were talking about the hero and I think the idea of the narrative
and the fairy tale and the hero, the destiny.
It's so important in our veins, in our brains, in our bodies.
Like this narrative, we are going through life with this kind of narrative since the
beginning of the conscious, since the prehistoric area, I think.
So we are human and we need this kind of narrative.
But if we apply this to the entrepreneurship world, we can see that there is not so many
heroes, not so many different kinds of narratives.
It's pretty much always the same.
And I think it's quite sad because we need symbolism.
We need different kinds of archetypes.
We are not all the same.
Not everybody is going to be Steve Jobs.
Steve Jobs was an incredible entrepreneur and there is many different ways of being
an entrepreneur and we do not just have to be this kind of person.
So we need heroes.
I think it's very important to have heroes.
Heroes can be our model, but they also can be an inspiration and they can be like friends,
like the friend you don't have in real life and you would want to ask for advice.
I would take my own experience here.
I'm a Janice Joplin fan since I'm 14.
I am so a fan of Janice Joplin that when I was 30, I went to the United States to follow
the steps of Janice Joplin to learn more about how she lived and who she was.
And since I met her, I would say spiritually when I was a teenager, she helped me because
of her energy, because of all the things she gave through her music, through her heart,
through her voice.
She helped me go into this world because she had this incredible energy of never giving
up, giving everything, being generous, never forget about doing what she really wanted
to do or offer.
So it's an inspiration, but it's also like this imaginary friend that we could have when
we were children.
I think it's time for new narratives, many narratives, more narrative in the entrepreneurship
world.
Thank you.
I love that, but I'll play the devil's advocate a little bit and therefore I'll quote Dante
where he said that hell is paved with good intentions.
There is this underlying fear or belief.
And even there are quotes that say, you know, there are a few ways to be right and million
ways to be wrong.
So those entrepreneurs often will say, look, there is so many ways to be a hero, so many
narratives possible, but they believe that there are a few narratives that resonate and
therefore they copy what works because they assume that all other people tried other narratives
and nobody cared and therefore they were not applicable or relevant.
So to you, do you believe that all narratives have a place in that all can resonate equally?
It's all about authenticity and feeling that energy that it's original, it's a narrative,
it's pushing you forward and therefore there is a lot of flexibility?
Or is it like even many creators, narrators and writers, for example, believe there are
only seven plots to all stories or nine plots or 14 or whatever it is, you cannot create
more.
All you can do is take parts of them and mix them together and all other ways will be wrong
and a bad story that doesn't work.
So how can we solve that having more narratives if people believe that what works is already
known and it's limited and it's only a few things that have been proven to work and everything
else is a risk and a big risk, it won.
Yeah, that's interesting because I'm maybe, I studied narratology in the past years.
I was working on fairy tales and narratology and yeah, I quite agree with the idea that
there is not so many narratives, not many stories, but in the same time, I would say
that there is many different ways to get above the obstacle.
For example, let me take an example.
Maybe there is, let's say 10 different kinds of narrative, narration stories and all these
stories are about how you can be successful in the end and maybe there is obstacles, difficulties
and you need these or these kind of qualities and so on, but if you combine them differently,
even if you change the combination, the way you are going to write it, the way you are
going to live it will be different, but you have to be careful not to take a narrative
to make excuses.
It's not very, maybe I'm a bit rude saying this, but a narrative is not exactly a dream.
It is something that you need to put meaning in your life, to give meaning to things like
they are meaningful for you.
If you get this meaning in something really deep inside, it's not like something you invent
to mask a problem.
You have to be very honest.
Maybe to be your hero, you will need some hero's quality that you will have to work
on them if you don't have them in the first place, but it's what hero are like.
The hero in fairytales often is the last child of a family or the child that nobody believed
in and because he is very consistent, because he is imaginative, because of different kind
of qualities, he goes beyond the obstacles and he takes the obstacles, but it's not like
he goes beyond the obstacles and takes a narrative not to take the obstacles.
I'm not sure if I'm very clear, but just tell me if I'm not clear.
What I want to say is that maybe there is not so many narratives and maybe there is
one formula that is more efficient than another, certainly, but it doesn't mean you can't create
once by combining different kind of episodes and narrative, but the only truth is that
you have to live the story, you really have to be the actor, the comedian of the story,
the filmmaker of the story, not just the person in the back watching the movie, you can't
stay in your armchair watching the movie of your life, at some point you will have to
go into the screen and fight with the bad guys or go through the difficulties.
This is the most painful lesson, certainly, because it's going to be hard and that's why
we all want to be heroes and that's why we all love heroes, because obviously they go
through the experience for ourselves and we can just stay in the armchair and look at
them, but if we want to do something with our life, we have to be the hero, but there
are many stories of the usual hero, the person that we don't look at or we underestimate
and you don't have to be a Marvel superhero to be a superhero, a superhero can be someone
just struggling with an economic situation, with a love situation, with a business situation
and just struggling and not giving up and just trying and just learning, it's already
becoming close to the hero.
Thank you, this is so interesting, it reminds me of productivity guru guy who was saying
look consider yourself the author of your life, if you write a script for the main character
which is you, they have no choice but to act and do it and therefore you cannot procrastinate
if you approach your life this way, at the same time I'm challenging this idea of yours
just to explain more, there is an author and somehow of an expert on presentations and
using storytelling to present who is Nancy Duarte and one of her principles is never
be the hero, be the mentor or the guide or the Yoda in the story and make the audience
or other people the hero in the story or the narrative you're inviting them on because
every person considers themselves the hero in their life and therefore if you're in another
hero your story is separate from theirs but if you're the Yoda then or the ally or the
person who's working with them like the friend or the companion who is not the hero then
they consider you as part of their story which makes you relevant but if they see you as
another hero who's going on a journey then they see you as living your story and they're
living their story and there is no intersection, do you agree with this or do you feel something
which is called narrative transportation which is when we see a hero and a story we feel
we are that person automatically and it's part of how the brain learns I don't know
tell me.
Larry so many things interesting in what you just said make me think of an idea of movement
and maybe it's this movement and creativity and imagination in the narrative it's just
like when you I'm not sure we have to be the hero or the guide or somebody else I would
say it's like I'm not sure we have to choose one path and stay with it it's I think more
I would not it's more like I'm gonna take an image because I can't find the word in
English but it's a let's be like water you know let's let's be like a river and if you
are a river and there is moment you are above above earth and sometimes it's sand and sometimes
it's rocks and herbs what I means when I'm saying this is like why should be why should
we be all the time the hero and if you feel in yourself that at one point you want to
you need to be a guide let's be a guide being a guide if you really take a story let's talk
about Lords of the Ring if you want to be Gandalf it's it's not so easy to be Gandalf
you have to have an experience because Gandalf didn't come to be Gandalf in the blink of
an eye certainly he has a story of him of of himself for himself about how he became
who he is and narratives are always about this in the end whatever you whatever whoever
you are is it the friend or the guide or the the the the fairy or the hero you always have
to change and evolve in the story the story is a the narrative is like a frame for you
to evaluate and so as I was speaking of movement I was thinking of this idea of going to the
dream and going to action and you know it's this movement always you are like it's a projection
you're projecting your desire and the meaning you want to find in life in the stories and
it's like you are dreaming you could dream to be as I told before Steve Jobs but it could
be Janis Joplin or whoever inspired you but you can also take a step back and back into
reality and be in action be the author be the actor or the filmmaker and then you can
go back to the dream and it's and it's why we need I think many narratives and we need
a lot of symbolism and we need to feed like we need to eat we need to have to eat a lot
of narratives it's like something for your mental health for your spiritual balance and
certainly to find a reason to wake up in the morning because you you have a sense of self
of knowing who you are and who you want to be and and the mission we we all need to wake
up for something and it's so it's so difficult to know who we are before we know it and it's
a long it's a long walk and the stories are there to help us and the characters are there
to help us and I'm I'm thinking that there can be movement and at some point we can get
inspired by different kind of characters in the story and so if you feel that at some
point it could be nice to be the guide because if you are the guide you will allow people
around you or your customer or your friend or families to be the heroes it could be a
perfect way to be a hero and to be the guide but if at some point you want to be the hero
and and jump through a huge obstacle let's be the hero it's like when I for for example
I I've noticed that in my in my case according to the moments of my life I need some kind
of movies or stories or or or of TV shows and when I am when I am quite depressed I
don't know why but I need a detective TV show I'm watching Colombo again and again or Megret
again and again because I think that I love to have a hero who is not me but who knows
things and knows how to go through the darkest aspect of human life and when I'm joyful I
like to to watch comedy so you know I think there is a a large range of stories and that
has human beings and and so as entrepreneurs we need to develop this learning of the narratives
and to use our imagination use our time to feed from all these narratives to to step
inside the stories and to find a way through life like the stories are here to help us
we should use them as tools I love that actually yes many people neglect their spiritual nourishment
and they believe that courage and persistence and grit comes out of nowhere but it comes
from your soul and spirit so you need to nourish it as well as show it examples of success
and that after the dark hour there is always a light at the end of the tunnel and it reminded
me when you spoke about how you see yourself as a hero and you develop those characteristics
of a Greek concept called arete or you're living to your potential which is what they
consider to be the virtue of the moment that every moment you should ask yourself how would
my best self behave how would my ideal self what would they do and do that and the more
you live in it the more you're living in virtue and I feel we could have a breakthrough for
personal branding because a lot of people don't understand what it means everybody is
guessing everybody is confused and trying just to say okay your personal brand is to
have wear red glasses and a red dress or your personal brand means you should speak about
some specific topic and not about any other or your personal brand is to donate to charity
and say I'm an altruist give me your money and buy my products or whatever it is so how
can we use this concept of nourishing ourselves with narratives of understanding our mission
of waking up into a story how can we use it in order to convey a personal brand to other
people and is a personal brand the name for something else is it just a personal brand
means you describe who you are as a hero to other people or how can we explain it in a
way that can be clearer like your personal brand means tell others what kind of hero
you are and the story you are on and therefore they see you as someone who is going there
fighting the dragons in your own journey and that is what branding means you keep repeating
that story and therefore they see you as that archetype or is it just standing out seeing
what are the narratives there and you do the opposite of them like the trickster archetype
who does the opposite of everyone or what is it what is personal branding and how does
it relate to what you spoke about yeah it's an interesting question and as you were speaking
I was thinking that this idea of personal branding is so odd if you think about it it's
very contemporary trend because we need this what it means to me is that to nowadays we
in some ways we became the product sometimes like we are on social media for example we
are the I would say the danger is to become products it's to become a version of ourselves
of ourselves that sell and I think we should go back to the soul as you talked before the
idea is that as human being is normal to to want to to be loved to be appreciate to be
seen to be recognized it's completely normal and in this world where we are so many and
so many wants or needs attention we created this idea of personal brands and it's very
useful and we have to see it like a tool but not to reduce ourselves to it just see it
like a tool and if you see it like a tool you see how powerful it is to not only be
seen which is certainly one of the purpose but to to to create yourself in the world
to become more like the hero you want to be or the guy do you want to be to me it's exactly
the same process as a classic brand but with the personal brand what I like is that we
don't have to copy each other we don't have to look like each other's it's not this we
don't have to wear a red red dress to be seen it's more subtle if we can go beyond and if
we can go deeper we could just for example some things well two things well the first
first thing is that the personal brand and the personal branding is the same the the
same tool as the brand it has the same how can I say that it has the same topics the
same tools it's always the same question it's the same question is how can you turn spiritual
an abstract concept an invisible idea into a physical form and for the personal branding
it will take the form of how you are dressed how you take pictures of you how you speak
what kind of words you are using what kind of colors you like what kind of visual you
are you are displaying and so on so you can list the different aspects the different physical
aspect of your communication that will become your personal branding and the other thing
I think is that we don't have to look like each other's and not everyone has to be the
same and we don't we on the other hand we don't need either to be all different we just
need to be different enough to be seen and look alike enough to be understand let me
take an example just like with branding we can take this example let's say you you would
love to be Steve Jobs because I was taking this example before okay so Steve Jobs is
your model you would love to be seen as the next Steve Jobs but Steve Jobs is already
taken it's somebody who already exists you can't be Steve Jobs it doesn't make a sense
so you are you and who are you you are inspired by Steve Jobs but I'm sure there is many other
people inspiring you there is things that you love that Steve Jobs didn't love and you
can be a little mix you can be Steve Jobs but with colorful sweats sweatshirts for example
or skirt or shirts I don't know you can be Steve Jobs plus Austin Powers or you can be
Steve Jobs plus Heidegger or Plateau you can you know you can mix and I think the it is
more rich and interesting if we can be inspired by different people and not trying to look
like exactly all the same but to be noticed it's not interesting to be the second Kim
Kardashian you have to be Kim Kardashian something you have to be someone else so you can be
inspired by Kim Kardashian you can do all the same things that she is doing because
she's very inspiring because she's very popular and she's very good at personal branding but
you should add something from yourself and work on this originality in order to be seen
as different to stand out and also while you are looking for it it's just exactly the same
with the brand with the business while looking for it you should never in my opinion forget
to do it not for others to look at you but in the first place how you would love to look
at you who would you love to be when you were a child I don't know when I was a child I
dreamt to be a writer and now that I and I've done one novel I'm very happy for the child
that I was and I think it's important to try to be someone who you you love you would love
before being someone the others would love because you're not you're not a trend that's
my my opinion about personal branding but I'm not an expert thank you it reminds me
of a guest I had here who was a very successful entrepreneur from Germany and he said it was
all the wrong way he was working hard personally Brandon himself just to be liked and to be
loved and nowadays that he's so successful he doesn't need to work he feels he doesn't
know himself he lost himself in the process and needs to spend time just trying to understand
and discover who he is and became very opposed to workaholism because he's saying when people
have such financial goals or any goals that they're lost in the momentum they don't know
if they're going the wrong way because they didn't spend time understanding who they are
and therefore maybe they're going in the wrong direction and also part of what you mentioned
reminds me of the book positioning by Al Ries and Jack Trout which is a classic when it
comes to a bit about branding but it's about positioning in the mind and their main argument
since you mentioned Kim Kardashian is if there is someone or a company that does exactly
the same as you human beings put one category and then they choose the first or the top
category in that category and in they ignore everyone else and therefore to survive you
need to create a new category in the mind of people that makes you makes them feel they're
different because often different is better than better because being better means well
you're competing with what exists and people often they don't try to add more companies
or competitors to what they're thinking about they just think okay I already know that the
best car for me is blah blah blah I don't need to investigate more especially something
new so being better doesn't get that human reaction in the brain where the brain pays
attention to what is new and different and unexpected because maybe it's dangerous so
it focuses on it but if it looks like the same the brain ignores it totally and therefore
to have anything stand out or get attention you need to be different because the brain
pays attention to what is different to verify and judge is it a danger is it good is it
bad and therefore it needs to pay attention to it even if it's trivial as long as it's
unique and therefore I will ask you this and it's very important a lot of people live a
life where they're anxious they live a life where they feel the imposter syndrome they
feel I don't know if I will succeed there is something called the survivorship bias
which is when people succeed you try to find the criteria that made them successful or
worship them but in reality maybe there are identical twins to them but they didn't get
lucky or they didn't get the same path and didn't succeed and therefore it's not relevant
well we live in a world where people can see it as chaos where narrative is just a way
for us to make sense of all this chaos so as a motivational tool or as a hopeful tool
how can we use narrative in order to feel more at peace in life and in reality in general
in order to not feel that the world is meaningless or in order to not feel alone and that the
world is against us and we're trying to do it because only that part which is very positive
of choosing a narrative so that you become a stronger person and a better person someone
will say well I don't know if I'll have enough money to pay rent at the end of the month
I'm not you know if you think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs they're in a survival part
they're not thinking about self-actualization yet so can can it be done in a way where we
use narrative so that we self-transcend and get to self-development and a way where we
see ourselves on a journey that is meant to happen with destiny and everything or is it
not is it a choice can we choose it how can we have narrative as a way for mental health
and peace in this chaotic life yeah it's a complex the answer is complex it's a good
question but it's complex topic I would say that to me the first thing to go through anxiety
with a narrative is to see how narratives keep us together well I think when we are
anxious even if we are anxious together it's better than be anxious alone and we need the
stories and the narratives to create bonds bonds with others and to remind us that we
are not alone we are not alone in this world we are not alone in this moment and we are
not alone in the history of humanity and so we can read a lot of historical stories historical
narratives we can read and go back reading the stories of the first civilizations of
earth that are written you were talking about we were talking about Greek myth or Roman
myth and then maybe it's time to go back to Omer maybe it's time to go back to fairy tales
into the old wisdom but also it can be reading the narratives of people together living difficult
things going through hard times it could be listening to testimonials in podcasts or reading
contemporary literature or poetry because everywhere in the world and I think it's a
comforting comforting thought every where in the world there are human beings living
and feeling and going through things because life is complicated obviously and so we are
stronger together and you should not stay alone in the dark you should light the candle
you light the candle or you take a lamp you take a good book you go through a movie you
listen to someone else you listen to your neighbor and the narratives are there the
narratives are in our world and you just have to follow your heart and go to find stories
and pay attention to the stories and to the stories that can help you and I think it's
the first thing and the second thing is how we can find the stories that will empower
us and in this case the answers are personal because what will empower you may not be what
will empower someone else even if the structure of the narrative is the same structure of
the story is the same but the way it is written the way it is colored is different and that's
something important because we are we didn't spoke about this but a narrative is is mostly
about the structure but not only on the structure on this frame in the frame you will find colors
where you will find textures you will find words and it is already a poetic and creative
way to look at life but yeah I think it's important to pay attention to stories and
not just see stories and narratives as information or something you I mean maybe it's gonna be
clearer with an example but it's like paying attention to what you are eating when you
are in bad mental health if you eat only things that give you aching or yeah or keep you from
from sleeping I don't know if you go to McDonald's every day at noon and at night and you got
sick you should pay attention to what you are putting in your body and go to a local
market maybe or find I don't know vegetables that you like or fruits that you like in order
to be in a better shape and in better mental health and I think it's the same with stories
it's not because it's not because they are words or images and so you don't eat them
with your mouth but you eat them with your eyes or your ears and if you pay attention
it's the first step to find the light find your light find what you like what is good
for you thank you that reminds me in Buddhism when someone is a beginner meditator or they
find it difficult they tell them to feel when they're meditating everyone and the history
of the world who has ever meditated and everyone who will meditate in the future as people
who are cheering them on their journey encouraging them to keep going no matter the difficulty
so that they don't feel alone that they are connecting with all the tradition and the
people who were progressing spirituality in that way and therefore this sounds exactly
and very in every way similar to use narrative to not feel alone to connect people and to
feel you're part of something like a lineage or a story that is repeating and therefore
it's not something scary or absolutely unknown and human beings are really scared of the
unknown yeah really and as you were speaking I was thinking of the idea of the imaginary
friend as I was speaking before because you can choose to have you can choose to have
an imaginary friend and you can choose to live with ghosts if you want and it can be
a comforting thought that to imagine a narrative where you have all these human beings that
maybe lived before you or like kind spirits beside you and rooting for you and helping
you in dark moments and so many human beings went through so many hard things and I think
it would be the story of humanity and it's so beautiful to see how we can go through
all this darkness all the time and it's so beautiful to see how each time we go back
again and again and again and we never give up and because we are alive and we need to
keep to stay alive so it's so important to use whatever we need to stay alive and I mean
alive not only physically but mentally spiritually yeah it's very very important I had another
idea but I forgot what I was saying what I wanted to say sorry yeah we're reminded in
a few minutes I can't remember now I love our conversation I know it can go on forever
I respect your time I really believe we should do this more often and again as well I would
love to as is each time we have so much to discuss I love your visions and yeah it's
so deep and profound and there is so much to say and to explore I'm sure we could speak
again about all these ideas and yeah thank you Lucy this was my privilege and my honor
I wish you success I wish you to keep going and you always have a lot of greatness to
share so have a wonderful day and keep sharing your thoughts everywhere thank you so much
as is I'm I wish you the same I am the one who is feeling honored to have spent this
time with you thank you so much for all the things that you are offering and giving and
all your generosity it's a privilege thank you so much
