Episode Transcript
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 0:16
Once upon a time, there were 10s of 1000s of makers struggling every day they built for hours and hours but didn't ship and did not earn enough income. One day, they no Caldwell's podcast came to help them find a way because of this, makers became founders and live the life they deserve. Because of that founders live lives of abundance, freedom, and creativity. That's what I'm really all about. Hello, my name is Aziz and from being a poor boy born to a single mother in North Africa, with no opportunities, just sheer hard work, to failing multiple startups, yet learning a whole lot to barely escaping alive the war in Ukraine, even living as an illegal immigrant. I've lost everything twice. And now I'm rebuilding my life one more time. 1% Today, sharing the wisdom of luminaries have interviewed on this podcast from Google executives, Goldman Sachs, the Financial Times Forbes, Technology Council, World Economic Forum, Harvard University, and even a priest from the Vatican church. Everyone is welcome, here. So let's begin. My guest today is starwest Shar. sarvesh is the co founder of no code lithics providing simple analytics for Webflow to help you understand users and grow sarvesh How are you today?
Sarwech Shar 1:51
Hey, Abdulaziz, it's great to be here. Thanks. How are you?
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 1:55
I'm feeling optimistic, lucky, grateful and ready to begin this conversation. So I want to know more about you. So I'll ask you this question. These days, whether in your life or in your business, what seems to be something that you're thinking about a lot, maybe it's an insight that you had a problem you're trying to solve? Or anything that you keep on thinking about? Again, and again? And again?
Sarwech Shar 2:24
Wow, that's a great question. And it's quite, quite profound. I would say something that comes to my mind quite a lot is how to leave an impact, and how to leave a strong legacy. So doing things that are good for as many people as possible. And that obviously come through building a business, as well as you know, other charitable endeavors. So so really, that's, that's something that I'm always thinking about, it's to help as many people as possible, ideally, through through the business. And that's what I'm trying to do now. In the software world. I
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 3:04
think you and I have so many questions. But I'll begin with this one. If you look at Maslow's hierarchy of needs, something like leaving an impact, which is usually self transcendence is supposed to be a need that arises after you cover all your basic and even medium level needs. Do you agree with that? Do you feel you're at a place in life? Where you have done that and you're ready to self transcend? Or do you have other reasons like the way you were raised up or any other things that make you desire, Impact and legacy at this point in time?
Sarwech Shar 3:45
Yeah, I mean, I, I think I would say that it's partly down to my upbringing. So a lot of people don't actually know this, but I was raised in a very poor village, in a poor part of Pakistan. So, you know, growing up, poverty was was everywhere. But on top of that, you were also taught to think of others and help others and, like, try to do good things for other people. And so that's something that's been instilled in me from from a young age. And then growing up, I was always encouraged by my parents do. Do do good deeds. Also, think of some kind of large ambition, whether that's through a career or whether that's through something personal and just try to try to go as ambitious as possible. So it's definitely been part of through how I was raised. And I think that's, that's obviously one one important thing, but it's it's also essential to have your basic needs catered for before you can do something like that. And that's what I believe a lot of entrepreneurs Try to try to manage, right? It's how do you manage the risk involved in starting a new business or going all in on something. And if you know, you if you're perhaps working still working full time, or you're trying to save up as much as you can, or you're looking after a family. And so I feel like I'm comfortable enough there. And that's why, over the last few years after discovering the kind of indie hacker scene, I've been very interested in, tried multiple things and launched a couple of different products so far that some that haven't been that successful, some that have been a little bit successful, and where I am now with no good lyrics, it's it's obviously the most successful so far. And as I've got a co founder, and we've got some a little bit of traction, and yeah, well, excited for the future.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 5:54
Thank you. And again, I have so many questions. So I'll ask why business, because it seems nowadays, no matter how much we advance, a lot of people have hangups, about business about money, they view business people in a light that is not so flattering. They think that the only way a business makes money is by tricking people or taking advantage of somebody else, etc. So did you grow up with such beliefs and overcome them? Or if not, why do you view business as a powerful force for good in this world?
Sarwech Shar 6:33
Yeah, that's another good question. So I guess I hadn't always considered this, you know, it's not like some some, some like founders who've had parents who launched businesses, and they watched him do that successfully. And that instilled in them the idea to themselves. It was it was more a case of, like, the way I used to think was, you know, it's, it's to the best thing to do is just to help others and think of others. And the first thing that came to my mind was doing out through like volunteering work or chat, like, like charity. And that's something that I actually spent quite a bit of my time in my early, early years. Like focusing on, so I was involved in a few volunteering projects. For example, one of them was to help underprivileged communities, by teaching kids how to code and giving them the skills that they otherwise might not be able to have. And I feel like there's, you know, there's really useful things like that, but I appreciate it. And I'm glad I did. But then, other than that, it's like, like how, like, how do you help as many people as you can at scale, and that often requires like a couple of things, right? You either need money, or you need people like labor. And the pod, the only way to get the former, like money's to either get loads of funding or grow business and get into some kind of huge exit. And you can use that to fund whatever, whatever you like. And then the other side of it is, if you're looking to get as many people together as you can, that's kind of where you enter the realm of like, politics. And it gets a little bit more a little bit more difficult to do anything in the short term, or at least in the next, like, in the sort of two three year timeframe that I'm thinking of. So, so I was, so all that's really saved, like that all that left me with the option of like, okay, the best thing to do is start a business and, like emulate the kind of path that the likes of you know, Bill Gates have gone on where they've launched a business and had a lot of success with it, and then they use that to help millions of people like fight disease or come out of poverty. So So yeah, I think it's, it's, it's evolved definitely over time. I I do understand some people who think that businesses can be evil, there are some businesses that maybe lean towards being valuable but for the most part, especially in the indie community, I found only people with really good motivations and principles and just good causes that the that they kind of working for. So yeah, I'd say like, it's not something that has always been there but it's, it's like business is one of the most effective ways you can do good in a short timeframe and have as much control as you can whilst you do it without diluting like your your efforts through in fun, giving money to charity or other ways.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 9:57
Thank you. And I would like to know more about about your beliefs about money, especially that you grew up in a very impoverished village in Pakistan, because a lot of business people who want to do good, really don't feel comfortable asking for money. So they tend to give away too much for free never feel comfortable asking for value in return for their hard work. And therefore, it becomes a big reason for the failure of their startup. So what belief do you have about money that would allow you to ask for it confidently, do expect value in exchange for value and do not see it as something that makes the good deeds? Dirty? You're not? I mean?
Sarwech Shar 10:43
Yeah, totally. This is, this is definitely a common problem with first time founders and even executives. And it's, it's, it's hard because you, you're used to not, I think, unless you build a business before, you're not really used to asking people for money. And it's almost like, in society, it's kind of rude to ask people for money. But You quickly learn in business, when you're providing someone something of value. You especially if it's other businesses, then they're very understanding and they're happy to pay you. And sometimes people will ask you to, to, like, raise your prices or charge more, which we've, we've had, in a couple of instances where we were early stage, and we were just providing our product for free. And then we'd have a few users in beta would say like, this is this is so good. It's so useful. Like, how do I pay you essentially. So I think as long as you're, as long, as long as you're you just accept that you won't get very far unless you do ask for people for money. And also appreciate that people are okay with that. As long as you're providing them something of value, then it's totally okay. Of course, if there's, if it's something that is like, malicious, or spammy, or you're not really providing people value, you're just taking the money, and you're not either doubling or tripling it. When you give it back, then that's not great. But But yeah, it's, it's like it's a psychological thing. And then it's kind of like, once you've done it, once you install somebody wants or twice, then you quickly get used to it.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 12:31
Thank you, then how did the idea for no code latex come to be? And you mentioned that it has traction? How did you realize that? What did you observe? What was the story or the situation or the moment where you found out while this is working better than more expected, or than other things I've done? Let's double up on that.
Sarwech Shar 12:57
So there's a couple of things there really, actually. So I'll kind of start back with how the idea came about. So I was actually to just to kind of briefly give an overview. So Localytics is a analytics tool for workflow sites specifically. And it integrates with web flow, CMS, and other third party tools that people commonly use with web flow, like member stack or jet boost. And it provides analytics for those tools as well. So the idea came about, sort of just over a couple of years ago, when I was working on a workflow project. And it was he was becoming more and more like, feature rich. And I was curious to know, like, how people are actually using those features, instead of are they simply landing on the page and, you know, maybe subscribing to the newsletter. So, I, I looked around, and I found a few options that we're more targeted towards, like SAS companies or, you know, web apps. And the there was like one tool, which did sort of the things that I was looking for, but it didn't integrate with any web flows, third party tools, which, which I needed. And so yeah, that's kind of like where the idea came about. And I spoke to a few people who use web flow, and they were interested in the idea, eventually signed them up to a waiting list. And more and more people started signing up to the waiting list. And it wasn't like, over a few weeks, I slowly, like got the feedback on the first version, and then launched it. And there was more interesting in the sense that it was easier to convince people to sign up and use it. And when talking to people about it, it was very much clear, like they had the same problem that I had in terms of tracking in Webflow. And also the other tools and so so yeah, it's like that's kind of where the the idea spawned and also, how it was clear that There was, there was a real, real interest in it. And since then we've, we've, we've grown the platform and then re launched it earlier this year. And we've just seen sign up numbers are going up every month, and it's growing quite quickly. And, yeah, it's like, it's one of those things where you can see it in the numbers, essentially. And so the number of people signing up every month, and then the number, the number of people who are say, converting at each stage, compared compared to, you know, my my understanding of general SAS conversion rates, as well as landing page conversion rates. It's, it's just higher than this. So it shows me that there's a strong need as well as strong traction. And we've got a little bit of revenue so far. So that helps.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 15:53
Thank you. That's really interesting. And you mentioned that you're part of the indie founders community, as someone who is typically looked at as maybe a minority or an ethnic minority kind of founder, do you find it more difficult or super accepting to be part of an indie community? Do you feel there are people who are getting more advantages than you do? Or it's To each his own based on their hard work and their idea?
Sarwech Shar 16:32
i Yes, good question. I mean, I haven't really felt any kind of friction in getting my idea out there. I've been lucky enough that since I started sharing the idea with people they were, they were receptive to it and welcoming and happy to like jump on a call. And most of the time, people were happy to hear from me, and and, you know, not mad or anything. And then also, the communities that I that I have been part of like, indie hackers and weekend club. In the London those, those are like the three main communities, I would say, I use the most in terms of as already, I guess. And those, they're, like, really, they're quite diverse, but also, everyone just gets it like you're here to build a business, you're here to build something great. And what really matters is the product and your problems you're facing as well as what lessons you can share. And I found that that's, that's usually enough to get people interested in talking to you. And and I think that's probably better than maybe, like, some of the larger, larger old industries. In terms of getting interest from people that work there. Be I haven't, I haven't really experienced any issues. So far, it's been a thing.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 17:58
Thank you. And since you're actively growing, know, code latex, how much networking do you do? You mentioned, you get in people on calls, especially that a lot of indie founders, they say, Look, I'm overwhelmed. I'm already focusing on my product. I'm not sure I have product market fit, I'm expected to do 50 hours of work every 24 hours. So I don't have time to be getting to know people to do that. Shaking hands and getting to know others. Do you feel that's a mistake? That networking should be a priority for everybody? Do you do it? Do you want to do more of it? Or do you believe no, in this world, just focus on your idea, and your product and let the chips fall where they may and focus just on prospect and client interviews more than general networking?
Sarwech Shar 18:54
Yeah, that's so that's interesting. So I haven't done as much of that lately as I used to. But in the early stages, the the way the product work was you had to split pay to sign up, and like you, there wasn't a free trial or anything. So I would, I would end up doing a lot of like outreach to people to see if they'd be interested in the demo. And out of that, like usually would be a pretty much like a sales call, like you said, but also, like, a lot of it will just be general chatter about what the other person does. Because it would be the first time I would have gotten on a call. So it was a good way to learn about like, you know, different members in the know code and workflow community and also understand their experiences and their journeys. And I think if you if you are doing if you're like doing networking, or you're doing sales calls, you can kind of treat them at the same. You know, obviously there's there's certain in some cases where you're purely want to focus on sales and we like we just want to go through list or something. But if you're starting out and you're curious about the market, where you're trying to gauge interest, then networking is a really good way to go. Because people are a bit more receptive to just chatting to somebody and just meeting other members of the community. And then you can always mention your product at the end and just say, like, Hey, this is something I'm working on, what do you think of it? So I think that's, yeah, that's definitely a great way to get yourself. I guess well versed in a new community. But uh, but yeah, I, I would, I don't know if it would hold you back. If you don't network. But you, you definitely can't just build a product and expect people to come through knocking on your door and like signing up for it. Unless perhaps you have a huge audience or you're, you're building it for an existing audience somehow be able to, like if you're, if you're building something, it's crucial to either speak to people and get feedback on it or do some sales and marketing.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 21:06
Thank you. And what is your perspective on the no code community, some people say it's a fad, there are many people who are trying to make quick money with it to start a side hustle. And whenever something new that is exciting, and hyped will come that will change jump the wagon, and only the real, no coders will stay. But it will be much smaller. Do you view it like that? Or do you view this as something that will become part of the technological literacy in this world?
Sarwech Shar 21:42
Yeah, so I mean, I may have a bit of bias, because I'm literally building a business that's part of the naked community. I would say, it's, I don't think it's a fad. Because it's, it's been a few years now, since Nokia really went mainstream. And it's not going away anywhere. If anything, there are more businesses that are or like this more, they're more tools being launched on top of existing Nuku tools, like, like you have, obviously workflow, who are
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 22:17
through which
Sarwech Shar 22:19
there are a lot of third party integrations and tools being built on top of, and then you also have, like Stripe who are getting into the space and encouraging more people to to build apps, which you can then integrate with Zapier or make. And, you know, there's obviously bubble and a whole host of other other apps that are that are there and they're not going away anywhere. I think it's it's encouraging because it means that this, this is actually a genuinely useful, valuable thing. And it's helping a lot of people who perhaps don't know how to code to do things that they might not have been able to easily, like, I'll just give myself as an example. So the reason I essentially discovered or came up with the idea for to nickel lyrics was because I launched a project that was built in workflow and no code at all, that I otherwise would not have launched. Because I didn't know how to code at the time. So it's a relatively simple product. But essentially, it was a it was like indie hackers back in the day when they just did interviews for the space industry. And the, like, the idea I had at the time, when I thought of it was to just build it using code, because that's what indie hackers was, go with. I think it was Ember or something I can't remember exactly. But uh, but I just kept putting the idea back, like, just just putting them out of my mind, because I figured, you know, it's gonna take me several months to learn how to code and then I'll be able to do it. And then one day, I discovered that workflow has a CMS. And there was like, several examples of websites that looked exactly like the one I wanted to build just for, you know, different sectors or different industries. And I was like, wow, this is perfect, I can use this, I can get a template or build it myself. And I can use this. And it was, it will be done in like, two weeks. And that was the case. So I actually managed to go from an idea to, to working on it to releasing it to the world. Because I discovered a no good tool that would help me do it. So I think there is really value there. And I think it'll get more and more useful as different tools integrate with each other, and they get more powerful, like workflow is launching memberships and like logic, and that'll enable even more cool stuff, all kinds of apps that people can build. So yeah, I'm pretty optimistic about it. I don't think it's bad. I think it's here to stay and if anyone wants to take advantage of that and you know, build something and Even if it's for short term, that's cool. That's that's kind of. That's what it's all. That's what it's all about. Right? Like, you're welcome to do that. As long as it's adding value and helping people, I don't see anything wrong with it. So yeah, definitely optimistic about Nokia.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 25:17
Thank you so much. And I know you mentioned a little bit NOC code latex. For any listener who's curious, can you explain exactly what is it? What are the benefits? How can people use it to get better ROI, or improve their workflow productivity or results or anything like that, as well as the website or social media that they should go to to learn more? And I'll make sure to write some in the episode description.
Sarwech Shar 25:48
Yeah, of course. So Nick, Analytics helps workflow users and agencies, designers easily track, like what people are doing on their workplace sites. So things like you know, clicks or forms like signing up the newsletter, or downloading a PDF, or completing a contact us form. It does all of that automatically. All you do is you sign up, you integrate a tracking script. And then it's all done. It's all there. And allows you to build a really simple to understand dashboard that shows useful insights about how users actually using the site. As I was saying earlier, though, it also integrates with jet boost. So people can see like what the most popular filters are, as well as like the Webflow CMS itself so you can understand which content people are engaging with. And the way I would say this, this is actually beneficial to people who build with Webflow is that you can actually kind of understand what users are coming to your website for what content they're engaging with, and that can help you generate ideas for new content that will increase engagement and get users coming back more. And over time, it'll it'll help you increase your traffic because you just by building a site that's that's more relevant to what users are interested in and what they're engaging with, then you're likely to retain those users better and just improve your overall numbers and boost growth. So yeah, you can check out the product on naked linux.com And it's totally free to sign up but yeah, you feel free to check it out on our Twitter is also at Nicoletti
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 27:39
Thank you, sir wish this was really interesting. I enjoyed our conversation and I wish you to keep going following your Indie founder dreams because it's a wonderful journey.
Sarwech Shar 27:53
Thank you Abdulaziz real pleasure and honor to be on here. Appreciate you having me.
