Episode Transcript
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 0:16
Once upon a time, there were 10s of 1000s of makers struggling. Every day they built for hours and hours but didn't ship and didn't earn enough income. One day, the no Caldwell's podcast came to help them find a way because of this, makers became founders and live the lives they deserve. Because of that, founders live lives of abundance, freedom, and creativity. That's what I'm all about. Hello, my name is Aziz and from being a poor boy born to a single mother in North Africa, to failing multiple startups, yet, learning a whole lot to barely escaping a live the war in Ukraine, even living as an illegal immigrant, I have lost everything twice. And now I'm rebuilding my life. One more time, 1% a day, sharing the wisdom of luminaries have interviewed on this podcast from Google executives to Amazon, Microsoft, Forbes, Technology Council, Harvard Financial Times, and even a priest from the Vatican church. Everyone is welcome, here. So let's begin. My guest today is Micah Johnson. Mica is a visual developer and thinker. He spends a lot of time thinking about the impact of no code on society, web three implementations, and digital power dynamics. Micah, how are you today?
Micah Johnson 1:59
I'm good, Aziz. How are you?
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 2:01
I'm feeling honored, privileged. And lucky to have you here today. And just to give people context, what are your thoughts about no code today about web three, and the digital power dynamics going on so that we can explore these topics further?
Micah Johnson 2:22
Yeah, definitely, definitely. So I'll start with no code, my thoughts on no code, or it's actually more of like a social revolution, more so than a technological revolution. Because technology and like software development was heavily centralized at times. But we don't think about it like that. We just thought like, it was just very smart people building, no big products, but it was actually just very centralized. You got to be like a certain background, or you've tended to have a certain background, a certain way to a certain school to be able to build software technology companies. But now with the rise of no code, it makes it easier for creative people. And people with ideas are ambitious, to just go out and build their ideas as long as they have the tenacity and grit. Right. So I think that's one of the deeper things about no code that we don't quite understand, or we don't quite talk about yet, since it's so early. But I wonder like, in five to 10 years, what will be the overall like economic impact of no code as well? And then for the second thing, what three, I just think about how can we better implement decentralized systems and protocols into our day to day lives and remove the friction and make it actually useful for people? Because there's a lot of like, but and a lot of like, projects that are fun projects are the things that, you know, they create a lot of hype, but the actual vision of web three is to create a decentralized world and decentralized systems and decentralized banking, finance, whatever, where people can own their know, so to say, digital assets, and I just think about how can we do that and make that easier for people as well. And then we'll get into digital power dynamics later, maybe that will come up in the conversation. But yeah,
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 4:26
thank you. And you seem to have a very optimistic like democratic view power, so the people perspective on the future of technology. At the same time, there are either naysayers who always see the future as something more negative and have nostalgia for the past, or those who speak about AI that it will take over everything like Terminator or the matrix, and humans will be basically batteries or plugged to the metaverse and just by not adding or creating much value. So what makes you feel and think and be excited about the future as an empowering possibility, rather than as a dystopia?
Micah Johnson 5:15
I would say the biggest thing about that is probably no code. But I mean, there's some stipulations around no code that might not make that possible. So, for example, like vendor locking, you may not be able to own actually own your application. And it might have to run on a like a centralized server. But just the ability for people of all aspects of life to go out and build their product, as long as I said earlier, as long as they're like tenacious, and as long as they have the grit to, you know, learn, make mistakes and continue to build, that actually makes me the most optimistic about a open society more so than even web three, even though web three markets itself, as you know, hey, we're going to build this decentralized future, it'll probably take us longer to get there with web three than with no code. But I just see a future with no code where a lot of people are empowered to build their own solutions, their own products. And we're not having to wait on Silicon Valley companies or types of people who may not identify with our problems, where we can just go out and build it and solve it ourselves.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 6:30
Thank you. And that brings a very important discussion, which is, a lot of makers start passion projects, and it's not really solving any problem that people are willing to pay for. So since you spoke about solving our problems ourselves, do you mean as in personal use using no code or add more productivity to oneself? Or if not, how would you raise your perspective? Or what do you see as the right way for people to validate ideas to find real problems that will bring profitable ROI? Yes,
Micah Johnson 7:08
yeah. Yes, this is an interesting question. So actually approach this like, question from a different perspective, because I am not like traditional, like tech background, like, I work with tech companies to build apps, like, whatever with bubble and stuff. But I'm not traditional tech, like, I've lived in a lot of cities in the south. So with the college in Alabama, and and living in the South right now. And the number one problem that a lot of these people had was that there'll be a lot of creative people, there'd be a lot of money flowing around, but there wasn't a lot of developers. So whenever I'm thinking about, like solving problems ourselves, I guess that's more so learn me. But as far as like validating ideas, it's just how, just like should I think like the best way to validate ideas, basically just going out and saying, Can you get like 10 People like to give you like good feedback on the idea. So can you like, get 10 people to sit down and talk about like, the idea and like, if they've had this problem before, like, just in like the traditional way, just sitting down and talking to people, as well. But I mean, there's other ways it t shirt.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 8:22
Thank you. And let's play the devil's advocate a little bit because I spoke before to someone who is the founder of a no code platform that was in the beginning for developers actually, to do more visual development. So they save time. And his argument was that you cannot just make any person, an OCO developer, people need to understand the basics of computer science and have very good software architecture, instincts in order to do it. And you cannot just bring a person off the street and make them a visual developer. So that is, in many ways, a counter argument to the argument that you're presenting that a lot of people will have this new power, and it will be democratized and open for everyone. What is your counter argument? Do you believe any person in this world can perfect learn and be good at no code and visual development? Or will it still be restricted by some foundational understandings, learn learnings and knowledge that is necessary for someone to do it?
Micah Johnson 9:36
Yeah, that's interesting. I actually think there's levels to how much people can like access will no matter how good they can get at no code. But my counter argument to that would be people are learning to build software by using software, basically. So in ways that I've introduced people to know code, the quickest way for me to get them to understand it was to explain it like this. Let's say you Log on to Instagram. And then you click a button. What should happen to like, oh, I should go to this page, I should do this do that. People using applications in itself is a way for people to basically learn how to understand and build software. Of course, they can get more complex as if they want to do like very complex things where yes, you do need to understand computing do you need to understand data structure do you need to understand like how to make decisions within your application. But if we're just talking about like, people being able to like, two very simple applications, I think that will become pretty much open to everyone. Because most of everybody in the world or not everybody in the world, but something like a billion people in the world are using some type of software application. And whenever they see a button, and they click a button, they expect that button to do something. And at the most basic level, that's an understanding of programming.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 10:57
Thank you. So thank you. So in many ways, it's people are already or have already a lifetime of learning how to know code by the fact that they're using apps and software and have been using it for a long, long time. I like where you're going with that. And let me speak you said later on, we can touch on the power dynamics, that are the digital power dynamics that are at play nowadays. Can you share a bit more about that your perspective? And why is it important for people to either be aware of or create the future of the power dynamics that will be digitally present?
Micah Johnson 11:43
Yeah, it just says, so I wrote an essay, like last year, around this time, when I was in on deck, it was called new forms of mastery. So basically, it was just like, I went in more in depth on like building a public and how that's the new form of mastery, and you have more tools, and you have more freedom to become, you know, basically just a master, whatever thing you want to do. And then there was a second essay that's largely unfinished, because there were some things that were unclear to me around digital power dynamics. But fundamentally, it's just like, if you can basically like create, like software is like the most highest, like the highest leverage thing in the world. Right? So you see, like Zuckerberg or at Facebook, like he has so much leverage. And he has so much power to do things just because his company is built on software. So he basically like runs a nation. So I started, I began thinking about like, hey, somebody with like, a strong, like social media following has more content, like more power than like the mayor in the city. So like, let's just start with like a thought experiment. And like, let's say like, you're in a town, you have a mayor. And then you have like a influencer with like, 100,000 followers. And the mayor says, Hey, we're gonna meet here at this place. And then the influencer says, Hey, we're gonna meet here at this place. I would like to ask this question to you, who do you think like, would would garner more people to come to that place?
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 13:25
Of course the answer one, sir, I'm sure of it.
Micah Johnson 13:29
Yeah, yeah. So I guess we don't really understand like, what, like how powerful social media is, and how power like, digital identity is? quite yet. And government definitely doesn't understand it. So I'm trying to like think about like, almost like in the way that like Robert Greene writes, like the 48 Laws of Power, like what are like the like, will be like the 48 laws of power for the digital age, basically. But it's, as you can hear, it's like, largely unclear right now.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 14:09
Thank you, but speak a bit more about power, because as they say, power is for many people, dirty word. And they say that the unwritten rule of power are the one missing from that book, the 48 laws of power that you mentioned, and I'm not speaking about the 50th law with defend or anything like that. But about people who have power try to either make you think that power doesn't exist, or that power is dirty, so that they keep it more for themselves. So to people who are listening, how do you define power? Is it the ability to influence people like you spoke about the mayor and the influenza? Is it something else and why is it important to have more power? Is it even important or not? What is your thoughts? on this.
Micah Johnson 15:01
Yeah, I would say, I would define it, as you said, like the ability to influence for now, like, that's, that's what makes the most sense to me. I mean, that can obviously change. I would say it's only important depending on what you want to do. So, if you want to build like a really big company, obviously, power is very important. And power is not like a dirty word, it's just the more influence you have, the more power you have, which is not necessarily a bad thing. It's just you can compel people to do things. And you can build like, you can build power can build influence, through like ethical ways you can do it through like, providing a lot of people value, right? Or you can do it in unethical ways, as well. But I would say, it is important, because you need to be able to influence people at some, some level, whether that's marketing, whether that's through no code, etc. because eventually you will need those people to go. Like, for example, if you're building a product, you'll need those people in to compel those people to use those products. Use your product, as well. So hope that makes sense.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 16:21
Yes. And since people, it's something very important, and you mentioned, you know, social media and all that stuff, which could be something that some founders might not relate to, or wave. Well, when it comes to networking, how do you build power? How do you make friends? And how do you influence people or become someone who's well connected has good relationships? What is your perspective on how humans together, build bonds, and connect?
Micah Johnson 16:54
Yeah. So I would just say, like simple like this, be a good person, and this be a good friend and try to provide value to people. Power goes wrong, I think whenever you try to seek power, like out, like, just like, woo, like, you start thinking like an evil king, like, oh, I want a lot of power, I want this, I want that. That's where I say power goes wrong. But actually, like, if you're a good person, you're providing a lot of value, when you like, genuinely want to help people, you will build a lot of influence. And with that, you'll build a lot of power, may not necessarily want the power. But just because you provide a lot about value to people and people trust you, you'll have influence and you have more power than you ever think you would.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 17:40
Thank you. And let's bring this on a more personal level. How did you discover no code and visual development? What motivated you to become someone who is an expert on it? Who's working with it within it, as well as how was your journey? The ups and the downs?
Micah Johnson 17:59
Yeah, so my story is super interesting. So two years ago, I was in college, I went to the University of North Alabama. And I was building we're trying to build like a bunch of apps. But there was like, no, like, we would build an idea. But we would like design it. Like that's actually like how I like started thinking about tech. So like, full circle, like I started like a clothing line. And I was like in high school. It was like designing clothes, got bored designing clothes, because I thought it was two dimensional. Started learning UI UX design, sort of like doing screens on Adobe XD and stuff. But then I was like, have these ideas, I would design the screen. And how would come to this place like I'd either have to, like build it myself, find a way to hack hack together myself, or like, convince somebody to do it. And then it came in 2020, like the spring of 2020. Right before COVID. We're building something like I convinced like some people to join the team, like other students to join the team. But it was taking us so long to get like to get an MVP out. Like the whole team just ran out of energy, because we were learning to code. And then there was one other developer on the team. We were learning to code and he was doing a lot of the depth but it was just still taking so long to get get stuff out there that we just ran out of energy. Then me and my friend, one of my other friends on the team, we ended up finding bubble and we just like hack together like a an MVP, and like a week or two. And from there, like I just started building a bunch of stuff in bulk or I spent the whole summer of 2020 Like, on no code, like building things to like 4am I built like a COVID-19 screening and management software for small businesses that summer. I build some other client work and then fall 2020 I was like spending I was like on Twitter a lot. So I like saw this thing called On Deck no code. I was like yo this Interesting. So I like applied, I got in. And then from there, like, things just went up on deck was like a tremendous like game changer for me, I was able to build a network of people and connect with a lot of people in the no code industry. And then from there, I did some agency work, actually recently and graduated in December. And then I'm working on some projects right now and then also doing developer development full time. So that's, that's the gist of my story. So
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 20:35
thank you. And since you're thinking about the future, and you're speaking about the social impact of web three of visual development and all that, technologically, where do you see the next phase of no code happening? What new trends and new technologies do you feel we'll make it easier to use faster, more mainstream, or just the next level?
Micah Johnson 21:03
I don't know if I see it. I mean, I think tools like bubble are good, because if you'd like just go heads down for too much, they'll become really up Come my proficient at it. But I would say like one thing I would like to see more and no code is the ability to develop apps locally on your own server, your own architecture, just because with the rise of web three, if you wanted to build like a fully like decentralized application, you don't actually want your application to be running on like a server like AWS, or, or Firebase or whatever, you actually want to control your own architecture, if that makes sense. So that's what I would like to see more no code is the ability to develop apps locally on your own on your own computer. And the same way that if you load a Visual Studio code, and you can do NPM, install NPM start and run your own localhost, I would like to see more nelco tools that build towards that way.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 22:06
Thank you so much, my car. This was really, really interesting. And if people want to learn more about you to discover your work, or to communicate with you, which links are the best to do that and I'll make sure to write your Twitter in the description as well.
Micah Johnson 22:23
Just yeah, follow me on Twitter Mighty King Josiah. I think my DMs are open so just DM me.
Abdulaziz M Alhamdan 22:30
Thank you so much. That's wonderful. And I wish you a great day. You too.
